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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JK Rowling, Margaret Atwood, Philip Pullman and "the death of the author"

80 replies

MargotBamborough · 11/10/2023 10:21

Firstly, this thread is not quite about "the death of the author" as Roland Barthes meant it. It is more about the idea that a work of literature can be separated from its author and enjoyed on its own merits even if you no longer wish to endorse the author due to their political views.

Secondly, hello JKR if you are lurking on Mumsnet. I hope you are having a lovely day.

I am in a baby bumpers group for mothers of children born in the same month as my son. The group originated on Reddit, so it is very US-centric, and has given me a lot of insight into women like me, living in a political environment completely unlike the one I am used to.

In this group, dissenting political views simply are not tolerated. It isn't explicitly said, but members of the group feel perfectly at ease expressing certain political views, such as that trans women are women, trans kids should be allowed to use spaces and compete in sports according to their gender identity, and that the conservative attacks on women's right to an abortion are appalling. I agree with some of these views, but not others. But what is noticeable is that there seems to be only one acceptable set of views, and that if members of the group do hold opposing views, they do not feel comfortable expressing them. I like being in the group so I hold my tongue when others are expressing political views I disagree with, notably anything trans related.

There's a subset of the group who are huge, huge Harry Potter fans. They are all up to their necks in merchandise, they dress their kids up in Harry Potter themed costumes for photoshoots, they're all just way, way more into Harry Potter than anyone I have ever met in the UK, and yet by common consensus they do not discuss JK Rowling because they're all so disappointed in her.

When I asked the group whether any of them had read the Cormoran Strike series it felt a little awkward, and then one of them mentioned JK Rowling being controversial. So I kind of pleaded ignorance and said I didn't think JK Rowling was as controversial a figure in the UK as she is in the US. I was told that the entire group agreed that she has some "pretty bad takes" and that they don't like to talk about her. But the person who told me that also indicated that she personally enjoys the Cormoran Strike books, and I started discussing those with her in a separate chat. She didn't know there was a new book out and I'm hoping we'll be able to talk about it once she has read it. Ironically, I think that even though she was the one who shut down the discussion about JK Rowling in the main group, she's probably the one who is most receptive to alternative points of view. In our own chat she agreed that Troubled Blood is not a transphobic book, she didn't get what all the fuss was about, and it was probably her favourite in the series so far.

On the one hand, I find it absolutely incredible that people can still be obsessed with Harry Potter to the point that, in their 30s, their love for Harry Potter still forms a part of their own personal identity, and simultaneously hate JK Rowling and want to distance her as much as possible from her own creation. There are so many other books in the world. Why not move on from Harry Potter altogether?

On the other hand, I am personally experiencing a similar conflict when it comes to other authors and artists whose work I enjoy, but whose views on women's rights I find disappointing.

The two that immediately spring to mind for me are Margaret Atwood and Philip Pullman.

There's no way that Margaret Atwood doesn't know what a woman is. She wrote the Handmaid's Tale, for crying out loud. A dystopian novel focused around the exploitation of women for their reproductive labour. She knows. There's no way she doesn't know. And she actually, a while ago, made some mild comments about not being allowed to say "woman" anymore, which were immediately seized upon by trans activists. She saw the mob approaching with their pitchforks and immediately recanted.

To a certain extent, I get it. She's an old woman. She doesn't want to have this fight. She has a very lucrative contract with Hulu, she's enjoying far more fame and fortune in her old age than most feminist writers can aspire to, and she probably won't live long enough to find out whether "trans women are women" really was the right side of history or not. But it's still disappointing.

Then there's Philip Pullman. Ugh. What an arsehole.

He wrote one series condemning organised religion, magical thinking and macabre experiments performed on pubescent children, and another series focused around a gender non-conforming woman living in an era when the odds were stacked against women even more than they are now. How can the man who created Sally Lockhart believe that trans women are women? If Sally Lockhart were a real person she would be a card carrying TERF, there is no doubt about it.

But Philip? No, he asks these leading questions on Twitter, the faux innocent, "Explain the gender critical position to me." He lets thousands of women patiently describe their experiences and outline their concerns to me. And then hours later he makes some sanctimonious jibe about how he "can't abide bigotry".

So whilst, on the one hand, I don't get how "liberal feminist" Potterheads can continue to be obsessed with Harry Potter whilst condemning JK Rowling, and on the other hand I would like to continue to enjoy the Sally Lockhart series whilst trying to forget that that odious wanker Philip Pullman ever had anything to do with them.

Can anyone else relate?

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Rudderneck · 13/10/2023 01:36

It's very cleverly done because although this podcast is very much JKR's big self defence, it still does encourage listeners on either side of the debate to have a few "are we the baddies?" moments. Like when it talks about right wing conservatives wanting to ban books with LGBT content from schools. I know there are a couple of those books that I have an issue with (Grandad's Pride, for one, and the one with the illustration of the "trans boy" with all the things they hate about their female body like the "fatty lumps that need to be gone" for another). I believe those books are harmful to children but does wanting them removed from school libraries make me the same as the people who wanted to ban Harry Potter for promoting witchcraft?

I mean, if we followed this to its logical conclusion, we'd be happy to make any kind of written content available to children, which seems like an extreme position.

EdithStourton · 13/10/2023 09:34

PrimitivePerson · 11/10/2023 14:38

I've worked somewhere that is something of a pilgrimage for Harry Potter fans. Pretty much all of them are adults. The kids have simply moved on to other things. Nothing to do with Rowling's views - they're simply growing up with other stories.

Haven't RTFT (yet) but Potter is still hugely popular amongst children. I work in a primary school and at one point 8 or 10 of a class of 31 Y4s (maybe Y5s, it was a year or two ago that I counted up) were reading HP. On World Book Day lots of them come in togged up as HP or Ron or Hermione or whoever.

Which isn't to say that there's not a lot of good new fiction for heir age group constantly hitting the shelves.

MargotBamborough · 13/10/2023 09:49

Rudderneck · 13/10/2023 01:36

It's very cleverly done because although this podcast is very much JKR's big self defence, it still does encourage listeners on either side of the debate to have a few "are we the baddies?" moments. Like when it talks about right wing conservatives wanting to ban books with LGBT content from schools. I know there are a couple of those books that I have an issue with (Grandad's Pride, for one, and the one with the illustration of the "trans boy" with all the things they hate about their female body like the "fatty lumps that need to be gone" for another). I believe those books are harmful to children but does wanting them removed from school libraries make me the same as the people who wanted to ban Harry Potter for promoting witchcraft?

I mean, if we followed this to its logical conclusion, we'd be happy to make any kind of written content available to children, which seems like an extreme position.

I agree, and I think that my concerns about those specific books being available to children in school libraries are well founded.

And JKR said in the podcast there is no book in the world that she would burn. She didn't say there was no book in the world that she thinks is unsuitable for a school library.

But I think the way the podcast juxtaposes the concerns from 20 years ago about Harry Potter being in school libraries and concerns today about LGBT books being in school libraries is very clever, because even if you ultimately come to the conclusion that the first wasn't justified but the second is, it still encourages you to challenge your own beliefs and ask yourself whether you are really sure you're right about this one.

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Rudderneck · 13/10/2023 10:49

I suppose that's true as far as it goes, but so far, I can't think of any article or podcast or media where I have seen that issue laid out in a way that wasn't fairly shallow. Just, this kind of book burning stuff or wanting to remove Mark Twain is the same as wanting to remove a picture book with an illustration of bondage gear, or a teen book that talks about how to arrange online hook-ups.

To me, that is really the most banal of observations. They never seem to ask, what is the role or mission of a school library, is it different than a public library, why do libraries have guidelines for children's materials in the first place if inappropriateness isn't a valid issue, what is the basis for deciding what is or is not appropriate, etc. These should at the very least be obvious questions to anyone talking about this issue, and I am quite surprised in a way that JKR isn't aware of that, or can't see that saying "LGB content" doesn't in itself tell us that those things are ok (or not) in a children's library unless we unpick why we have standards and what they are based upon.

I think some people have this vague idea that the author gets to decide what books are suitable for what age group. There was a fuss a while back about the author of a popular teen novel. One library system in the US was looking at all their teen books, and reclassified some, including his, as adult. So they would be placed in the adult section. (Which, btw, teens have access to in a public library.)

The author was very upset, thought it was crazy because he had written the book for teens, obviously it was a teen book. Now, I don't know that I think the book was not find in a teen section - but not just because the author saw them as his intended audience. The library system, IMO, it totally within it's rights to decide a book doesn't belong in these kinds of restricted sections. And in this case it's not like the book was even unavailable.

Ultimately with things like this, apart from material that might actually be dangerous or illegal, to some extent it always comes down to community values. Sometimes they try and dress it up as something else, but that is what they are talking about. And the truth is that not everyone in the community will have the same views, and libraries tend to take a broad approach, but some things still, like Grandad's Pride, may fall so outside of those for the majority that it's a problem. And in some communities, some approaches to LGB material will be controversial for a larger portion of the community too.

MargotBamborough · 13/10/2023 13:58

@Rudderneck I didn't interpret it like that though.

JK Rowling's comments about not believing any book should be burned were in the context of a discussion about people who wanted to burn her books. And the point she was making is that it isn't so much about burning a physical object as it is about wanting to destroy an idea, an idea that you consider so dangerous that its very existence poses a threat.

I think it's completely fair to do some self reflection about the fact that religious conservatives wanted to ban Harry Potter books from school libraries in the 1990s, and today those same people want to ban books with LGBT content from school libraries.

Is it the same?

If not, why not?

What are they objecting to?

Is it legitimate?

Do I agree with those people that these books should be banned from school libraries?

If so, why?

What books are we talking about, exactly?

If I disagreed with those people in the 1990s about banning Harry Potter but I agree with them now about LGBT books, why? What's the difference?

It really does force you to examine your own thinking and make sure you understand where you are drawing your own moral lines and why.

For example. I think banning Harry Potter books from school libraries is insane because I don't believe in magic or witchcraft, I don't believe these books are evil, I actually think they have a very good moral message, and I don't believe in God so I don't think these books are leading children away from God. I also don't think that the people who were objecting to them had actually read them. In particular, David Hogue who was a lawyer working for the families who wanted to ban the books at the time and who is interviewed in the podcast, admitted that when he fought that case he had not read the books. He later read the books and changed his mind about them and said that he was glad he lost that case.

So what is different about "LGBT books"?

Well, firstly, I don't think "LGBT books" should be banned from school libraries either. In particular, I think that books which normalise same sex relationships and children growing up in families with same sex parents, are important. It is important for children growing up in those types of families, or children who suspect that they might be same sex attracted, to see themselves and their families represented. But I do think some of these books are harmful to children. I think that "Grandad's Pride" promotes adult sexual fetishes which are completely inappropriate for young children, and I have some concerns about whether it might be promoting the breaking of strict moral and legal boundaries such as the prohibition on sexual relationships between adults and children. And I think that the book about the girl with gender dysphoria which depicts all the things she hates about her female body promotes gender dysphoria and glorifies self harm. I wouldn't want my daughter reading it. On a slightly less extreme level, I don't want my children reading anything which encourages gender stereotypes, which I think pretty much all books which teach that whether you are a boy or a girl is a question of identity are at risk of doing.

But listening to the podcast did encourage me to challenge my own beliefs and work out why I feel the way I do and examine whether my feelings are really justified or whether there is an element of prejudice there.

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