Conversion Therapy Definitions?

[WitchyWitcherson]

I'm hearing a lot about conversion therapy lately and, as far as I can tell, there are now three definitions;

1. Conversion therapy meaning a homosexual individual receiving some form of therapy (willingly or unwillingly) to "convert" them into being heterosexual.
2. Conversion therapy meaning a homosexual individual medically transitioning with the idea that they become a heterosexual individual (because they now present as the opposite sex).
3. Conversion therapy meaning a person with gender dysphoria receiving psychological support rather than medicalising their dysphoria and medically transitioning.

I can see how 2 is an extrapolation of 1, as in the end the aim is to create a heterosexual individual; and the core reasoning behind why gender ideology is homophobic.

I fail to understand why 3 counts as conversion therapy, or is it because people think people are 'born trans'? Or is 3 not called conversion therapy? I've found these mixed definitions confusing and hard to follow at times!

Definitions come from people with different opinions on what is appropriate, hence the mixture of definitions.

I thought conversion therapy was a terrible cruel and inhuman thing - electronic shock treatment, lobotomies etc. But no, for the trans rights activists, as far as I’m aware, and I could be wrong here, conversion therapy is merely talking. Counselling. Being told that actually you weren’t born in the wrong body, there’s nothing wrong with you, you’re perfect as you are - I believe that’s considered to be conversion therapy. Hence why David Tennant would wear a T-shirt saying “leave trans kids alone you absolute freaks”. Ironic that only a cruel freak would want to help a child by gently talking to them and counselling them, instead of being really ‘kind’ and fast-tracking them on to a harmful and unnecessary medical pathway.

If I was a young person with gender dysphoria, I would rather an attempt was made to ‘convert’ me with counselling and talking therapies rather than rushing in to give me a double mastectomy, testosterone and phalloplasty. The first route is a far more gentle approach than the second route, which is drastic, life-altering and irreversible. You’ve got to be really sure before you go down that path. And let’s not forget, for gay people, the second route is a form of conversion therapy in itself: transing away the gay, as staff at the Tavistock clinic put it.

1 is the generally accepted meaning

2 is an arguement used by GC feminists as an example of how transitioning is in fact what 1 wants to legislate against

3 is why the Tories didn't go through with proposed legislation.

3 is why Labour is promising to bring in proposed legislation.

Listen to what Barry thinks

Thank you! This is what I was wondering, so the third definition is used by TRAs, I was a bit confused about it when I saw it used on a different thread.

As for transing the gay away, is there much evidence that's a motivator for people transing their kids? E.g. in conservative Christian communities in the US?

Yes in Iran, I'd say yes most definitely for the ex head of mermaids and for JJs parents.

in conservative Christian communities in the US?

In anecdotal stories there seems to be a very strong link, which does seem at odds with what you would think conservative christians would accept. (I am sure it has been discussed on other threads, but searching mumsnet is so clumsy)

And there seems to be common link of some of the better known trans women in the UK all recount stories of a highly homophobic father.

Mermaids dismissed the idea they were "transing away the gay" because a significant percentage of the children they supported identify as gay following transition.

However, as sexual attraction doesn't seem to change with transition, it was much lower than the 90%+ you'd expect if transitioning occurred at the same rate for straight kids as gay ones.

I'll take a look, thanks! (Although trying to avoid internet rabbit holes today as I've got lots of work I should be getting on with 😅)

Helen Joyce's book Trans covers the history of "transing away the gay" in several different cultures. The same histories e.g..hirja in India, ladyboys in Thailand, are often used by TRAs to say that trans people have always existed. And they're right. Looking at the history of it all is really interesting and helped me join up lots of dots.
Hannah Barnes' book Time to Think then also helped me with that continuum (I read them the other way round but the thread of thought still worked) because it brings things up to the modern day and the shift in demographic of gender-questioning children from mostly boys who would grow up to be gay to the dominance of girls who are opting out of girlhood for various different reasons (internalised homophobia still being one, but not necessarily the main one).

Thank you! Another couple of books to add to my Audible list :)

So I saw that Labour are going to ban conversion therapy

https://www.lchr.org.uk/why_conversion_therapy_needs_to_be_banned_now

I know the definition they are using definitely includes the first one in my OP, but which other definitions do they mean, as they're talking about psychiatric help for "gender identity" as part of this - I'm worried this means the third definition too??! But also it says medical interventions so that could count as definition two.

Scary if they mean the third definition!

Sadly it's clear that they mean the third one.... (as well as number 1).
They don't seem to understand that they are being played when they listen to "all voices" on this subject.
They seem to view 1 and 3 as the same thing because they've been led to think they are, by sleight of hand definitions and years of misrepresentation and conflation of sex, gender reassignment and sexual orientation.

You're welcome.
Helen Joyce's book would be my top recommendation out of all the books which cover this whole topic. It's foundational for all of it.
After that, it's going to depend on where your own specific interest lies (kids being drawn in to the medical scandal of believing they need to change their bodies for me, hence the Hannah Barnes book).
I kind of "fell in" to feminism from that angle, which is why I've not yet read the feminism books. I will. But right now I'm very busy doing lots of other stuff to help my gender-confused/curious autistic, adolescent daughter and others like her.

I've listened to Material Girls (Kathleen Stock) and Hags (Victoria Smith) - both I would highly recommend.

Also working my way through the "Gender: A wider lens" podcast. Your daughter might benefit from listening to the podcast if she'd be open to it, it's a very "balanced" view in that it's sympathetic to people going through gender dysphoria but presents lots of facts, rationale and discussions including how we've gone backwards from "girls/boys can like, do and wear anything they want and they are still a girl/boy" to "if you like/do/wear feminine things, you're a girl and masculine things you're a boy, and if you like both you're probably non-binary".

My young daughter is showing signs of high functioning autism (family history of it, I have strong traits too and was incredibly dysphoric growing up and well into my 20's!) so I'm arming myself with lots of information for the day she (might) start questioning her gender.

That's terrifying if they're looking to ban therapy for people with gender dysphoria 😮and how they can (rightly) condemn things like sterilisation of homosexual people whilst simultaneously claim that medicalisation of trans people is the best option (which can involve... sterilisation!!!).

Holy crap!

I hadn't really thought about my daughter listening to the podcasts. That's a great shout.
She's not ready for that yet but as she gets a bit older, and if she's still not sure whether she's meant to be a girl because she doesn't "feel like" one ... but nor does she "feel like" a boy (that's the stage we're at - no active desire to escape girlhood, and she now totally accepts that there are many reasons why girls may not always enjoy puberty or being girls during that stage), I'll save some that may be helpful for her to work through her thoughts.
Next on my reading list, just ordered, is When Kids Say They're Trans. I think some of the podcast stuff will be covered in there too. I've also pre-ordered the Glinner book. I'm rather excited about getting my hands on that one! I used to think he was abhorrent, but now couldn't feel more differently. Sorry... hopefully not a derail from your thread.

The irony of using this hyperbolic statement in his opening address:

”the state cannot permit individuals to undertake conduct that would amount to prohibited ill treatment, enforced labour, arbitrary detention and which may lead to a violation of the right to life. There must be zero tolerance for conversion therapy, however it is manifested.”

And then go on to mention psychiatric treatment as being potentially banned is eye-opening.

Probably is a derail but I'm fine with that 😁

If it helps, I've never felt like a girl or a woman either! Although I suppose the closest I've felt to being a girl or a woman is having a period, being pregnant giving birth and breastfeeding... the only things that have tied me to being a woman are biological functions; before pregnancy, I thought I must be non-binary, post-pregnancy I realised I'm GC plain and simple. There's a fine line between one and the other; it just depends whether you buy into gender stereotypes! The podcast is a really useful resource to encourage thinking around this 😊

I've also pre-ordered the Glinner book from my library, hoping my partner will pick it up tomorrow for me! And planning on buying the audiobook at some point (since I don't actually have any time for reading 😂).

I also never "felt like" a girl... It was just never a thing when I was younger to imagine I may not be one.

And there-in lies my opportunity to bring myself back in line (although.. yey to mutual Glinner book excitement! 😁) and take that thought to its logical conclusion... Which one is rhetorically the conversion therapy? Asking younger me if I thought I might not really be a girl (do I want to chop off my boobs and be non-binary for example?) or telling younger me that my body is right for me and I'll grow in to it?

On the subject of gay/trans "conversion", this film was shown at the Tory party conference last week. It's very good IMO:

I'm hoping Malcolm Clark makes another one on autism and gender identity. But the focus on LGB conversion (type 2 in the list) is also very important to call out.

Gay conversion therapy ban

Labour would introduce a ban on gay conversion therapy that would include protections for transgender people, the party announced.

Shadow Women and Equalities Minister Anneliese Dodds said the party would bring forward a “no loopholes” ban on the practice – which is when people attempt to supress someone’s sexuality or gender identity.

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/every-policy-announced-labour-conference-keir-starmer-speech-2678248

This episode is for parents and children to listen to together @BonfireLady .
Don't know if that would work re age of tour daughter, but you could always check it out first?

Oops! Link fail!:
https://spotify.link/4FU3Rw4RODb

Amazing, thank you @DameMaud

I'll have a listen.

That's what I understood from the ban. The "attempt to surpress sexuality or gender identity" is a difficult one.

What counts as "surpression" though? We know that suppression of sexuality results in bad outcomes for the person being surpressed.

Where those of us who are gender critical (and also evidence from previously mentioned Iran and other more conservative cultures) we see transing as a form of sexuality surpression?

Is psychotherapy to explore feelings of gender dysphoria as opposed to the "affirming" route of social and medical transition not considered by TRAs to be "surpression" of gender identity?