Degree in magic to be offered at University of Exeter

[Pixiedust1234]

No idea where to post this really (ugh..thought I had posted in the FWR chat part!). Should it be Religion or Parenting or normal Chat. But figured there might be a few witches in these frozen parts of MN. And they talk about dragons, are they not dinosaurs in disguise?

Actually, it does sound interesting. One of those subjects that start in one place and meanders totally naturally into another.

"Decolonisation, the exploration of alternative epistemologies, feminism and anti-racism are at the core of this programme."

A choice of modules includes dragons in western literature and art, the legend of King Arthur, palaeography, Islamic thought, archaeological theory and practice and the depiction of women in the Middle Ages.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-66981924

Ah I just knew this comment would be made!

80% of graduate jobs don't specify a particular degree subject. This looks to me like it's along similar lines to a history degree and history graduates are VERY employable due to the skills developed :)

And this is why I wasn't interested in certain types of traditions. I do not understand the concept of having to have permission like this. It's basically just replicating the hierarchical structure of the Church.

I’d love this. Obviously magic is not real but studying the history, folklore, etc round it would be fascinating

It's interesting that this MA while supposedly a broad history of the occult is under the department of 'Arabic and Islamic studies'.
The Quran recognises magic and sorcery but forbids it, that aside the modules of the MA seem related to general belief in societies around the world not just Arabs.
I don't think any very religious Muslims will be happy to take this course or even consider it halal...

It’s probably that a lecturer within this department has an interest and has set this MA up but their main role will be teaching on one of the larger courses in the department.

There is widespread engagement in occult practices in many Muslim societies.

And people who study these modules are by no means all orthodox Muslims.

@GodessOfThunder I'm from a Muslim country and had a degree of Islamic education - I'm not Muslim but we all had to learn. Occult practices are forbidden. Nobody would openly admit to seeing a 'medicine man' (that's the closest English translation I can find), or dabbling in rituals. However, they certainly exist and what's more, are used by people - usually the desperate.
Of course, there's a large non-Muslim population and they're mostly free to do what they like, but Muslims are not..

By the way - note the nuance here. Unlike religions like Sikhism (which focuses more on principles for living a good life) Islam does cover the subject of witchcraft and sorcery more widely. Sorcery, spirits (jinn), etc are all confirmed to exist. It's just that sorcery shouldn't be used or more importantly, no other element (e.g. spirits) should be called upon for help or guidance other than God. So it's generally associated with evil. That is the strictest interpretation - however like all other religions the extent to which this is adhered to depends on the prevailing culture of the society.

Which is why I thought it a strange department for this MA to fall under - especially if you read the full introduction:
https://blogs.exeter.ac.uk/magic/2023/06/27/ma-in-magic-and-occult-sciences/

"By housing this program in the Institute of Arab and Islamic Studies, we place the Arabo-Islamic cultural heritage back where it belongs in the centre of these studies and in the history of the “West.”

I fail to understand why 'Arabo-Islamic' cultural heritage is in the centre of any study regarding the occult when it was Islam itself that displaced many existing occult traditions in its quest for expansion. Both Christianity (the 'West' I presume) and Islam have strong traditions of proselytization, and of supressing other practices/religions and terming them 'occult'. So it's odd to centre them in this subject. Maybe though it will be the exploration of how the former have actually been affected since the paragraph goes on to talk about 'decolonisation, anti-racism' etc etc.

At @VisaWoes it doesn't look like it's just a case of the lecturer belonging to that department. Maybe this is just academic speak that doesn't really mean anything.

I don't know, I tend to think degrees like this tend to be pretty shit.

You could study all of these things under the auspices of a history degree, anthropology, sociology, and I am sure some other possibilities, depending on what approach you wanted to emphasize.

You are right, it's a very odd choice. They seem to be saying they are placing it in that department as a sort of anti-colonialist political statement, not because it belongs there more naturally than in something like a classics or history department. But it also seems like they are trying to shoehorn in the anti-racism element, so to me this seems like it's all some sort of odd political game or maybe attempt to secure funding from some interested party.

Well the person running the course is already a professor in Arabic literature at the university. So yes, I do think it’s a case of an academic from an existing department setting up a new course and that’s why it’s in that department. Her wages will come from that particular school within the university.

It seems to be particularly prevalent amongst SJW types who states things like ‘sex is a western invention imposed on others’ or ‘maths is a white supremacist subject’

Having been a science fellow, we never turned a hair when coming across research papers from all over the world. We knew full well the were great scientific research centres in ‘the East’ (and that they were such centres there in ‘antiquity’)

Can degree titles be clickbaity? Would anyone be talking about this if it had a more sensible name?

Yes there are many instances few know that the word 'algorithm' derives from the Persian mathematician Al-Khawarimi. or about the Golden Age of Islam where many scientific advances were made during the 8th and 9th centuries.

And exams were invented in China... the first to show that subtracting a number from itself yields zero was the Indian mathematician Brahmagupta.
Sadly the growing influence of more extremist forms of Islam and use of religion to control people has led to this erasure. Not just 'Western' people have no clue but also Arabs (and other Muslims from around the world).

And again - nothing to do with the occult!

Yes there are many instances few know that the word 'algorithm' derives from the Persian mathematician Al-Khawarimi. or about the Golden Age of Islam where many scientific advances were made during the 8th and 9th centuries.

Most 'tedious STEM bores' (such a shallow 'two cultures' stereotype btw!) should know this. Chemists should be familiar with why we have so many terms beginning with Al-

Including, of course, the precursor 'alchemy'.

I'm so glad i posted this. I'm learning lots of little interesting snippets. Thank you 🤗

I'm a programmer and most computer science textbooks have a little 'culture' snippet where the algorithm is mentioned - I have no doubt that the other sciences have that too.
I know that alchemy comes from 'al-kimia' but we use many Arabic words so in our languages 'chemistry' is still 'kimia'.
https://sciencehistory.org/stories/magazine/al-kimiya-notes-on-arabic-alchemy/

As @Rudderneck this looks to be more about political game playing rather than education and understanding of all cultures.

the first to show that subtracting a number from itself yields zero was the Indian mathematician Brahmagupta

This is contested. It seems it developed in Mesopotamia several centuries earlier, and the Mayans also came up with it independently before him. Though perhaps his demonstration of it was more communicated as it then spread abroad from Indian to the East.

‘zero’ seems such an obvious concept that I guess it cropped up everywhere pretty much all the time (I have two eggs, let’s eat two eggs, I now have none left) so rather than anyone being the first to show it, I suspect it was more the first to use it as a concept in maths and to have a record of this use.

If its occult science then why isn't it MSc

Science basically refers to uncovering the rules and laws through which things work or function. You can study all sorts of subjects in a scientific way - not just the 'hard' physical sciences.

The tendency to dismiss subjects that people have not themselves studied is not very scientific. Science is a method of testing things out; looking for patterns and so on over a prolonged and controlled period.

Systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses

There's nothing. 'non western' per se about the study of 'magic' or the occult. Theer are lots of occult traditions around the world including in the West.

Science basically refers to uncovering the rules and laws through which things work or function. You can study all sorts of subjects in a scientific way - not just the 'hard' physical sciences.

Yes - but is that what's meant by 'occult science'?

My choice of wording was deliberate - he was the first to 'show', i.e. provide formal mathematical proof in a recognised manner. Of course, someone else could've written it down elsewhere but not been recognised, also possible.
Nevertheless, while the concept of nothingness may seem obvious using it as part of number system is not. There are other numerical systems with no digit for 0.
In fact your very example '2-2 = 0' is based on the decimal positional numerical system, the most commonly used in the world now but the ancient Babylonians for example had no zero, they knew what it but saw it a 'lack of a number' rather than a digit in itself.

In any case the point was not to assign the credit to any one person but to emphasize that scientific achievement isn't limited to the 'West' (itself a massive catch-all term for various cultures). Or any one culture in particular.