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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'The right side of history' = 'God is on our side'?

194 replies

RainWithSunnySpells · 01/10/2023 09:29

I'm sure that this isn't an original thought (it's probably been suggested before) however once I thought about this it made a lot of sense of the weird phrase TRSoH.

I always wondered how anyone can be on TRSoH in the present. Surely it is the people in the future who will judge that when they look back at the past? Therefore, does TRSoH essentially mean or is an equivalent to 'God is on our side'?

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 01/10/2023 22:55

OTOH we could return to the OPs question instead of that massive derail based on a fallacious statement.

Rudderneck · 02/10/2023 00:25

Yes, to get back to the question:

I think they are almost precisely the same.

It comes down to the nature of progressivism, as an ideology, and on the left an extremely common one. Some people might argue it's inherent in leftist ideology; I don't think I necessarily agree with it, but it has often been the dominant perspective, which is why they tend towards utopianism.

Marxism, of course, takes for granted a kind of progress in history, and sees it as playing out through class struggle.Leftist identity politics substitute various identity groups for class categories. But the end in both cases is a kind of utopian society, an end to history. It absolutely sees history as having a telos.

It's a common idea that Marx essentially inherited this idea of progress from Christianity. The only reason we might intuit it is if we see ourselves as being all round more enlightened than those in the past (as we will, because that is our bias.,) and of course all of history has led to where we are now. SO it can appear as if there is some movement toward a more enlightened end - but it's an illusion.

What's interesting is that Christianity, at least in orthodox forms, makes no claims about this happening as a strictly historical process. On the contrary, it seeks to explain the evident impossibility of an end to history, and the solution to that, while it takes in history, or intersects with it, is not and cannot be historical. God is seen as being outside of time and history, and as underpinning what is true and real, so in a sense could be said to underpin any true ideological position.

Marx, being a materialist, took that and reduced it to a material, historical movement, but there seems to be no real justification for the idea that there is an end to which it is all moving. But to my mind that is where this idea of the right side of history comes from.

ArabellaScott · 02/10/2023 06:55

I'm no theologist, but Judgement Day features strongly in all Abrahamic religions. I always had the impression that was the thing that gave Christian history it's end goal/aim, and that believers would all have an eye on.

Quite possible I've misunderstood, but isn't that a hypothetical historical future event?

GodessOfThunder · 02/10/2023 07:19

Rudderneck · 02/10/2023 00:25

Yes, to get back to the question:

I think they are almost precisely the same.

It comes down to the nature of progressivism, as an ideology, and on the left an extremely common one. Some people might argue it's inherent in leftist ideology; I don't think I necessarily agree with it, but it has often been the dominant perspective, which is why they tend towards utopianism.

Marxism, of course, takes for granted a kind of progress in history, and sees it as playing out through class struggle.Leftist identity politics substitute various identity groups for class categories. But the end in both cases is a kind of utopian society, an end to history. It absolutely sees history as having a telos.

It's a common idea that Marx essentially inherited this idea of progress from Christianity. The only reason we might intuit it is if we see ourselves as being all round more enlightened than those in the past (as we will, because that is our bias.,) and of course all of history has led to where we are now. SO it can appear as if there is some movement toward a more enlightened end - but it's an illusion.

What's interesting is that Christianity, at least in orthodox forms, makes no claims about this happening as a strictly historical process. On the contrary, it seeks to explain the evident impossibility of an end to history, and the solution to that, while it takes in history, or intersects with it, is not and cannot be historical. God is seen as being outside of time and history, and as underpinning what is true and real, so in a sense could be said to underpin any true ideological position.

Marx, being a materialist, took that and reduced it to a material, historical movement, but there seems to be no real justification for the idea that there is an end to which it is all moving. But to my mind that is where this idea of the right side of history comes from.

I’ve found that if you have a few drinks with a GC bod, when they open up they often express a fear that they might not be “on the right side of history”. This, I’m sure is part of the backdrop to this discussion although of course no one will admit that here.

It’s just a phrase expressing a prediction for what the person saying it hopes/believes is likely to happen in the future.

I don’t think it has any connection to Marxism or any other teleological view of history for the vast majority of trans rights advocates. They have seen/know about the successes other movements for minority rights over the past decades have enjoyed: gay rights, women’s rights, ethnic minority rights, and see trans rights as a logical next step. Hence the “right side of history”.

Yes, this board believes trans rights mean an erasure of natal women’s rights, but obvs that’s not enough of s concern for the above.

NotBadConsidering · 02/10/2023 07:37

If believing that doctors should sterilise children and render them asexual for the rest of their lives because they declared a particular identity before puberty is the right side of history, I’ll happily sit on the wrong side of history for the rest of my living days.

ArabellaScott · 02/10/2023 07:42

It's healthy and sensible to doubt and test your own beliefs, conclusions and thinking. And against that of others who disagree.

Also sensible to bear in mind that there are bad faith actors who are happy to spread disinformation and make ad hom attacks to try and further their aims.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 02/10/2023 08:07

GodessOfThunder · 02/10/2023 07:19

I’ve found that if you have a few drinks with a GC bod, when they open up they often express a fear that they might not be “on the right side of history”. This, I’m sure is part of the backdrop to this discussion although of course no one will admit that here.

It’s just a phrase expressing a prediction for what the person saying it hopes/believes is likely to happen in the future.

I don’t think it has any connection to Marxism or any other teleological view of history for the vast majority of trans rights advocates. They have seen/know about the successes other movements for minority rights over the past decades have enjoyed: gay rights, women’s rights, ethnic minority rights, and see trans rights as a logical next step. Hence the “right side of history”.

Yes, this board believes trans rights mean an erasure of natal women’s rights, but obvs that’s not enough of s concern for the above.

Oh look, more imaginative ascribing of views to ‘GC bods’

you haven’t explained the ‘biological essentialism’ we all apparently believe In yet

GodessOfThunder · 02/10/2023 08:23

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 02/10/2023 08:07

Oh look, more imaginative ascribing of views to ‘GC bods’

you haven’t explained the ‘biological essentialism’ we all apparently believe In yet

the GC bods were actual people I’ve had a drink with.

if that descriptor doesn’t apply to you, no probs.

I’d be surprised though if a few commenters here weren’t secretly concerned about not being on the right side of history.

after all, if you are opposed to minority rights you’re in some pretty awful company historically

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 02/10/2023 08:25

Gosh this is fascinating

Now about this biological essentialism you’re so sure that people on this board believe in that you’re happy to be rude to strangers on the internet about it

you must have thought it through right? You’re so very sure that you’re right

GodessOfThunder · 02/10/2023 08:26

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 02/10/2023 08:25

Gosh this is fascinating

Now about this biological essentialism you’re so sure that people on this board believe in that you’re happy to be rude to strangers on the internet about it

you must have thought it through right? You’re so very sure that you’re right

I’m glad you’re finding it interesting!

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 02/10/2023 08:43

I’m just going to repeat my theory from upthread that ‘god is on our side’ and ‘the right side of history’ are both phrases used by people who are unable to explain why they believe what they believe (and indeed find any attempt to get them to explain their views impertinent)

if I couldn’t explain my beliefs I’d find that worrying

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 02/10/2023 08:44

It’s quite apposite to have a live action demonstration really

RebelliousCow · 02/10/2023 08:48

GodessOfThunder · 02/10/2023 08:23

the GC bods were actual people I’ve had a drink with.

if that descriptor doesn’t apply to you, no probs.

I’d be surprised though if a few commenters here weren’t secretly concerned about not being on the right side of history.

after all, if you are opposed to minority rights you’re in some pretty awful company historically

If that is your take " opposed to minority rights".....it reveals that you really don't understand the fundamental issues involved.

It is not about 'minority rights' but about a post modernistic ideological construction and the forceful, non democratic imposition of that ideology - which over-rides everyone's rights and makes of itself a special and privileged case which must be obeyed.

ArabellaScott · 02/10/2023 08:55

I’d be surprised though if a few commenters here weren’t secretly concerned about not being on the right side of history.

after all, if you are opposed to minority rights you’re in some pretty awful company historically

Translation: 'If I was you I'd be worried about being a stinky poo head. Aren't you worried about being a stinky poohead?'

This is an argument we see as an alternative to ever expanding on an argument or providing evidence to support said argument.

It doesn't work on us anymore, pet.

RebelliousCow · 02/10/2023 08:55

Sex is real and measurable. .......Gender is a social construction and extrapolation based on social norms and expectations

Gender Identity Theory arises out of Post Modernistic Queer Theory.

The key word in that is 'THEORY'. An idea. A construction. A framing device.

There is no such thing as a 'trans person' which exists outside of a personal belief or feeling - or which can be measured in any other way.

The whole concept of 'trans' is that " You are who you say you are - no questions".

It over-rides observable, material reality and relies on suspending one's own instincts and awareness in favour of submitting to a private faith held by another.

RebelliousCow · 02/10/2023 08:58

If all of the above is a " minority right" - then so is any other privately held belief which flies in the face of observable reality. We cannot legislate for privately held beliefs, other than the general protection for religious belief we already have. We certainly canot force everyone else into compliance without trampling on their rights.

ArabellaScott · 02/10/2023 08:59

Anyway, to move away from stinky pooheads and bring us back to OP's point, I'd love to hear more on the historical framework (a hypothetical future, or past history) of Christianity/Abrahamic religions, or otherwise.

Do these religious beliefs operate outwith a historical framework? It's an interesting point as I'd think a historical viewpoint is positioning both subject and others within observable time frames and reference points, whereas an ahistorical/outwith history viewpoint is very much faith-based - 'timeless'. If that makes sense. But maybe there is cross over?

RainWithSunnySpells · 02/10/2023 09:02

It has been said that if you want good people to do terrible things you need an ideology.

If you asked anyone 10 years ago, if, for example, autistic children should be sterilised, how many people would have said 'yes'?

Now it has somehow become a 'minority right' that autistic children (see the Tavistock's own figures) should be put on a pathway to sterilisation? Plus GOT's 'GC bods' doubt they are on TRSoH.

That's the power of ideology.

OP posts:
PermanentTemporary · 02/10/2023 09:03

I'm not 'opposed to minority rights'. I just don't believe actual lies.

Thinking about a minority that really is oppressed such as Travellers, I believe both that they have a right to their culture and also that laws about minimum education age etc apply to Traveller children. A 16 year old Traveller girl has every right to the education of her peers. She also has the right not to be called abusive names for her culture and told persistently that her culture is in the wrong, and excluded from society. There are Traveller voices that help find a,way through, and there are also abusive elements in that culture that need addressing. I don't need history to tell me that the current situation isn't right.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 02/10/2023 09:05

Yes

do I believe that future people will judge me for being opposed to giving children who are uncomfortable with sex based stereotypes drugs that sterilise them and make their bones fragile and surgery that leaves them life long medical patients?

erm no. No, I can’t say that features on my (long) list of worries at all

Kucinghitam · 02/10/2023 09:20

Once again, #OperationLetThemSpeak is shining brilliant sunlight.

GodessOfThunder · 02/10/2023 09:45

PermanentTemporary · 02/10/2023 09:03

I'm not 'opposed to minority rights'. I just don't believe actual lies.

Thinking about a minority that really is oppressed such as Travellers, I believe both that they have a right to their culture and also that laws about minimum education age etc apply to Traveller children. A 16 year old Traveller girl has every right to the education of her peers. She also has the right not to be called abusive names for her culture and told persistently that her culture is in the wrong, and excluded from society. There are Traveller voices that help find a,way through, and there are also abusive elements in that culture that need addressing. I don't need history to tell me that the current situation isn't right.

How is a traveller defined though?

Travellers self define and also (well some do, some live in houses and permanent settlements) engage in certain lifestyle markers.

Recognising travellers as a group deserving of rights requires just as big a leap of faith by your logic as recognising trans people as deserving of rights.

You could also apply the same logic to other faith based rights.

Also there is no know “gay gene”. We take people on good faith they are gay when giving access to resources etc.

PermanentTemporary · 02/10/2023 09:51

Yes. And providing that groups who self define as a minority (such as transwomen) don't self identify as a group they aren't (such as women) and observe the law (such as the Equality Act allowing for sex-based provision) there isn't a problem, or at least not for me.

'The right side of history' is retrospective and it's important to remember that history is just as subjective as the present.

MargotBamborough · 02/10/2023 09:56

These are people who appropriate everything, including the past (Joan of Arc was trans) and the future (people who haven't been born yet will agree that we were right).

It probably is equivalent to "God is on our side", not so much for the religious aspect as for the fact that people who claim God is on their side probably don't actually believe any such thing, they're just looking for an excuse for their own shitty behaviour.

DeanElderberry · 02/10/2023 10:02

In Ireland “Traveller community” means the community of people who are commonly called Travellers and who are identified (both by themselves and others) as people with a shared history, culture and traditions including, historically, a nomadic way of life on the island of Ireland.

From https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2000/act/8/section/2/enacted/en/html

Please note the capital T.

I presume the UK has a similar form of words. This has been tested in law many many times. People discriminating against Travellers have to difficulty knowing who they are.