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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

“My shadow is pink” is the book of the term for my 5 year! Help me formulate my arguments for my child’s school!

46 replies

Areyounot · 29/09/2023 20:17

You know when you read something over and over again and you still don’t feel like it makes sense? That’s where I am at!

I am not the most articulate of people and I find writing hard at times, but I cannot let my child be taught this at school at 5! I am currently writing an email to the head but I feel my argument is weak.

Any ideas would help!

OP posts:
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MargotBamborough · 30/09/2023 08:16

OldCrone · 29/09/2023 21:54

Why do children need to be introduced to the concept of gender identity?

Do any of the people pushing this regressive nonsense ever explain why they think that children need to be taught about it?

They want children to be taught about it so that whilst adults are arguing about women's sports and women's toilets, an entire generation grows up without the knowledge that these things were ever supposed to exist in the first place. If you capture children from toddlerhood onwards, you win. It's what they did in 1984 and the Handmaid's Tale. Only the adults who still remembered the before times were problematic, the expectation was that once the children who had grown up in the regime were adults, it would be smooth sailing.

MargotBamborough · 30/09/2023 08:17

AmateurNoun · 30/09/2023 07:50

I would suggest quoting the following Department for Education guidance on planning for the relationships, sex and health curriculum in any letter:

You should not reinforce harmful stereotypes, for instance by suggesting that children might be a different gender based on their personality and interests or the clothes they prefer to wear. Resources used in teaching about this topic must always be age-appropriate and evidence based. Materials which suggest that non-conformity to gender stereotypes should be seen as synonymous with having a different gender identity should not be used and you should not work with external agencies or organisations that produce such material.

Guidance link

Perfect!

MargotBamborough · 30/09/2023 08:20

FannyCann · 30/09/2023 06:12

Good grief. A whole term on this one book? They really want to drum it in.
Maybe spending a term in a particular book is the thing now but when my DDs were 5 (did you mean 5 year old or year 5?) most if the children were still developing their reading skills - DD1 was fast and bringing home a new book every day, DD2 was slow to learn to read and very much concentrating on that.

Why can't the children read more interesting books to excite their imaginations? And encourage their desire to read?

It was bad enough spending a whole term on one book when I was 15 and had a longer attention span and the book was Of Mice and Men, or Macbeth.

Although to be fair, spending an entire term on this might be counterproductive to their aims if it gets five year olds saying, "I'm really bored of gender now."

Heliotroper · 30/09/2023 08:21

I do not see what is progressive about the book.

Fifty years ago my dear old mum had a better answer to anyone who said certain toys were for boys or girls. She used to just laugh and say it was nonsense. She had three kids and did not have time for that. Toys were toys and as long as we did not break them, lose them or leave them in harms way she was not bothered who was playing with them.

CyberCritical · 30/09/2023 08:24

I'd be interested to know what other books will be covered throughout the year and what the planned discussion points are about the book.

I do not subscribe to gender ideology, but I do believe in encouraging my child to read a wide variety of different views and critically evaluate them, and have done since she was very young.

I want her to learn that just because it's written or spoken as a 'fact' doesn't make it true, accurate or balanced.

I'd be talking to my DD at an age appropriate level about whether she thinks that blue means boy and pink means girl, does she agree that the boy in the story should wear what others think is 'right' for their sex, whether there are set toys, jobs, personality traits that are just for boys or just for girls. I'd introduce her to other age appropriate books with lead characters who are tomboys and talk about well known women who stepped outside of gender norms. We have a lot of the little people, big dreams books about people like Marie Curie or Amelia Earhart.

Heliotroper · 30/09/2023 08:28

"Let Toys Be Toys is asking the toy and publishing industries to stop limiting children’s interests by promoting some toys and books as only suitable for girls, and others only for boys"

https://www.lettoysbetoys.org.uk/

This is the only message needed. No need for toxic nonsense about shadows.

FannyCann · 30/09/2023 09:01

Or a visit to an art gallery to look at fashions past @CyberCritical ?

These are part of the collection at Petworth.
Have to say I rather love the shoes!
Pink was for the men and blue for the ladies!

“My shadow is pink” is the book of the term for my 5 year! Help me formulate my arguments for my child’s school!
“My shadow is pink” is the book of the term for my 5 year! Help me formulate my arguments for my child’s school!
“My shadow is pink” is the book of the term for my 5 year! Help me formulate my arguments for my child’s school!
Catsanfan · 30/09/2023 09:02

Good christ. Complain. I have a 3 year old and if I ever come across this bollocks the nursery/ school will get it from me with both barrels

CyberCritical · 30/09/2023 09:08

FannyCann · 30/09/2023 09:01

Or a visit to an art gallery to look at fashions past @CyberCritical ?

These are part of the collection at Petworth.
Have to say I rather love the shoes!
Pink was for the men and blue for the ladies!

Absolutely, we're in Leicester so have been to Newark Houses museum lots of times which has lots of great examples of frilly menswear and the Punk exhibit at New Walk museum was fab.

I don't like what I'm seeing about this book, but haven't read it so can't give a good review. We do need to accept though that throughout their schooling and life in general they'll be exposed to lots of opinions, materials etc that espouse views we and they don't agree with. My goal is to teach my child to have their own opinion and to come to that opinion by thoroughly exploring the topic and having constructive discussions.

snowbird21 · 30/09/2023 09:17

I think this is wrong, and also believe that this paves the way for this ideology to take hold amongst children - what will be the next step the school takes ie name change etc. I feel that complaining at the small things is needed as that is how this dreadful ideology has been allowed to take hold - we have been too polite.

Leafstamp · 30/09/2023 09:20

CyberCritical · 30/09/2023 08:24

I'd be interested to know what other books will be covered throughout the year and what the planned discussion points are about the book.

I do not subscribe to gender ideology, but I do believe in encouraging my child to read a wide variety of different views and critically evaluate them, and have done since she was very young.

I want her to learn that just because it's written or spoken as a 'fact' doesn't make it true, accurate or balanced.

I'd be talking to my DD at an age appropriate level about whether she thinks that blue means boy and pink means girl, does she agree that the boy in the story should wear what others think is 'right' for their sex, whether there are set toys, jobs, personality traits that are just for boys or just for girls. I'd introduce her to other age appropriate books with lead characters who are tomboys and talk about well known women who stepped outside of gender norms. We have a lot of the little people, big dreams books about people like Marie Curie or Amelia Earhart.

Good advice

Summerslimtime · 30/09/2023 09:50

The sooner we can go back to using the word, PERSONALITY, the better.

LodiDodi · 30/09/2023 09:51

When I was 5 I wanted to be one of the lion cubs from Lion King. I didn't care that I was a little girl, because no one told me that my interests had to conform to gender stereotypes either male or female. Absolute tosh.

TotalOverhaul · 30/09/2023 10:02

Heliotroper · 29/09/2023 21:51

The people bullying the boy who liked Elsa are saying he is girly and should be ashamed.

The pink shadow says he is girly and should be proud.

Both want to put a stigma on the child.

The only sensible thing to say is that he is a boy who likes Elsa and so bloody what?

in a nutshell. That is all that is needed. i vividly remember an incident when i was pre-school - so I must have been no more than 3 years old, at a playgroup when a little boy called Adrian was playing with a doll in a pushchair for ages. I got annoyed because I wanted to play with it and complained to the playgroup leader that he shouldn;t play with a doll and a pram because he was a boy. she told me very sharply that boys could play with whatever they wanted and if I wanted to play with a firetruck, that was fine too. I went off to play with the fire truck, and literally in that instant, aged 3 realised that there was no need for gendered segregationof anything (but not in those words! Grin

DS1 has commented that he is proud and maybe a bit amused by DH and me, as DH loves cooking and singing and I like army bootcamps, target practise and boats. But the fact that he genders those interests in his mind at all and admires us for bucking the trend shows how much his generation have been trained to gender everything. It's the thinking that needs to change not the body parts.

Pokinganose · 30/09/2023 10:03

Summerslimtime · 30/09/2023 09:50

The sooner we can go back to using the word, PERSONALITY, the better.

This. Totally with you OP. Sick of schools pushing issues onto young children, trying to put them into boxes and causing anxiety. Let them enjoy their childhood. Stop putting ideas into their heads that sometimes non existent.
Schools are meant to be for education noteducating children on personal issues such as beliefs, sex, gender issues etc. Those are meant for parents to address as and when they feel their child is mature enough to cope with it. Not at age at which the school decides. Gives me the rage.
No helpful suggestions OP, sorry, just wanted to add my support. Lots ogpf good suggestions on here though. Hope other parents at school will support you.

PorcelinaV · 30/09/2023 12:08

@MargotBamborough

Yes, I think it's likely deliberate indoctrination of children.

I'm sure they would try to defend it as helping children understand their gender and know that it's OK to be different, but they are presumably aware that these ideas are controversial.

Is it OK to indoctrinate children? We somewhat allow it with religion and moral values. So parents have some room to raise children with their own values.

Schools are allowed to participate in religious indoctrination, but it's at the consent of parents, and so is basically an extension of the rights of the parent to indoctrinate their own child.

But I don't think it's ethical to be trying to indoctrinate other people's children with highly controversial ideas.

Now the author and publisher could defend themselves here, and say that it's up to parents if they want to read this stuff to kids or not.

But it's not like a religious book for children when you very clearly know that it's ideological in nature.

Children can be accidentally exposed, or exposed at school deliberately because some people have an agenda.

PorcelinaV · 30/09/2023 12:29

The playing with toys issue would be widely seen as not a big deal. Same with girls playing football or something like that.

However, I think encouraging young boys that it's OK to cross dress in public, is a lot more questionable. Adults can make their own choice, but children aren't going to understand how this may be viewed in society and that this kind of gender non conformity may have social consequences.

Some people here may think it's "GC" to encourage it, but GC views shouldn't be pushed at school, (in a one sided way), just as gender ideology shouldn't be.

ChateauMargaux · 30/09/2023 13:12

@AmateurNoun's link is exactly what you need to share..

"We are aware that topics involving gender and biological sex can be complex and sensitive matters to navigate. You should not reinforce harmful stereotypes, for instance by suggesting that children might be a different gender based on their personality and interests or the clothes they prefer to wear. Resources used in teaching about this topic must always be age-appropriate and evidence based. Materials which suggest that non-conformity to gender stereotypes should be seen as synonymous with having a different gender identity should not be used and you should not work with external agencies or organisations that produce such material. While teachers should not suggest to a child that their non-compliance with gender stereotypes means that either their personality or their body is wrong and in need of changing, teachers should always seek to treat individual students with sympathy and support."

While this book (based on the text written on Amazon) seems to teach that it is OK for a boy to like 'pink' things.. presentation of the message in this way reinforces the divide into pink and blue. Instead, presenting children with diverse interests in normal situations is a more effective way of breaking down stereotypes, showing female firefighters, mechanics, racecar drivers, male nurses, cleaners, teachers, parents in caring roles.. that is how to change the world, not pointing out the obscurity of a boy who likes ballet.

It is like asking someone not to think about a spotty elephant.. you cannot remove that image from your immediate conscious. Other examples are being told not to be scared or nervous - or saying - you are not nervous are you? You have to say no.. but now all you can think about is that there must be something to be nervous about.

Repeating @AmateurNoun's link. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum. the more times this is shared with schools.. the better.. They will have already seen it but bringing to their attention that they should not be using materials with a political message is very important and giving them an alternative narrative that is positive rather than a negative narrative that then is reframed so we can understand the negative position first - it is much more effective to deliver a positive message first and then if necessary, exploring examples where this has not been applied..

Plan your relationships, sex and health curriculum

Information to help school leaders plan, develop and implement the new statutory curriculum.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum

RebelliousCow · 30/09/2023 14:03

ItsALongWayToTheTop · 29/09/2023 20:31

As far as I'm aware the book is about understanding that not everyone conforms to stereotypes and that that's okay. Son wants to impress his very 'masculine' Dad but enjoys playing with things that are traditionally enjoyed by girls. A bit like Billy Elliot. What's the problem?

It asserts a gendered stereotype ( that of pink being 'girly') in order to counter another one ( that boys can't be gentle).

RebelliousCow · 30/09/2023 14:06

newhere24 · 30/09/2023 06:24

All this book teaches is that kids don’t need to fit into stereotypes. things like girls can be scientists, boys can be dancers.
Common sense really. And feminist.

Children already know that because they are now exposed to people in a variety of role regardless of their sex.

What this book is doing is re-asserting the idea that there may be girl and boy activities and male and female jobs - thus re -introducing, unnecessarily, gendered thinking or expectations.

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