Writer Naomi Klein says she doesn’t understand gender critical feminism

[PotteringPondering]

Canadian writer Naomi Klein was interviewed at the Royal Festival Hall this evening by the BBC’s Samira Ahmed, about her new book, Doppelgänger.

Most of the evening was about the book, in which Klein (a left-wing activist) reflects on being confused with writer Naomi Wolf (who now sides with the right and conspiracy theorists). This was fascinating.

At the end, a questioner in the audience asked her how ‘so-called feminists’ can be anti-trans. Klein speculated that it’s white women being seduced by the far right.

Samira Ahmed pointed out that the UK narrative is different, and one of the main legal cases here involved a black lesbian. Klein said she didn’t understand that kind of feminism.

I was shocked that such an articulate thinker, who’s spent years at the cutting edge of cultural issues, could say she simply doesn’t understand why any feminist would question gender ideology. Seriously?

They could do an absolute U-turn on trans issues tomorrow, say, "A woman is an adult human female. Trans women are adult human males. We will repeal the Gender Recognition Act and strengthen the Equality Act to ensure that single sex spaces are protected. We will instruct all public institutions including the NHS to remove all gender-inclusive language from their communications and return to regular, comprehensible, sex-based vocabulary. All trans women currently serving sentences in women's prisons will be transferred to men's prisons. The police and the civil service will be given a top down shake up to remove all people in positions of power who misrepresent the law in these areas. Now, enough about that. Here is our bold and imaginative manifesto outlining how we propose to fund schools and the NHS, lift families out of poverty, combat homelessness, get the rising cost of living under control, help people access secure and affordable housing, improve our trading relationship with the EU and other countries, tackle climate change, sort out the student loans system and support the elderly."

I would absolutely love it if this happened - I could walk into the polling both and vote Labour with a clear conscience. I imagine the reason they won't do it is that too many of their MPs and activists are sold on the idea that trans women are women. Probably so are some of their target demographic, ie young people. So they're in a mess. Of course, Keir Starmer could ask himself what the morally right thing to do is, and do that, but it would be a first, wouldn't it?

@RoyalCorgi In which case their MPs and activists need to ask themselves, honestly, "Am I in politics because I want to get elected and have a chance to actually run the country? Or am I here because I want to virtue signal and look relevant without having to do any real work?"

Because if it's the latter they need to fuck off out of real politics and clear the ground for some actual grown ups.

And for what it's worth, I am far from convinced that the kind of statement I outlined above would be a dealbreaker for most young people, many of whom are probably just keeping their heads below the parapet over all the trans stuff, and even if it were, well, young people don't tend to vote in high numbers anyway.

The Tories understand that in order to win elections you prioritise the voting demographics who vote in the highest numbers and that is why the Tories are nearly always in power.

The analysis from the 2019 election shows younger people are less likely to turn out to vote anyway.

This doesn't mean they're not important, quite the opposite. In fact young people's safety is what's driving much of the middle aged and older people's objection to Labour's anti-safeguarding, fibbing stance.

Samira Ahmed pointed out that the UK narrative is different, and one of the main legal cases here involved a black lesbian. Klein said she didn’t understand that kind of feminism.

Samira is splendid.

When will people grasp the UK/US difference. And how dare NK set aside the achievements and reforms associated with Maya Forstater, Allison Bailey, Sonia Appleby, Keira Bell, Raquel Rosario-Sanchez and so many others.

At the moment, I can vote Tory and harm the country, or vote Labour and harm women. Or vote Lib Dem and harm both. Gee, thanks guys.

Such a great quote! Of course she understands it, she just doesn't want to acknowledge it as it would land her in a world of trouble.

I can't actually quite believe it, and don't want to bring them any grief, but I saw a very heartening word on Twitter from a Labour MP today.

Reality based class analysis. Yes thank you @RavingStone . All Labour candidates should have this written in block capitals beneath their profile pictures. To remind them what the party was set up for.

She's Canadian. Enough said.

There isn't.

White women has become an ad hominem of what can be described as the left. Or progressives. Although in this instance it is the white part, same for men, though usually there the trope is old, white men. Not just white.

Literally begging Naomi Klein to read a book by a British radical feminist! Heard her on a BBC radio show called Young Again where guests talk about their younger selves. She said she really struggled with the confines of gender growing up, and thinks it's great what young people are doing to break down gender, and "I just don't understand why some feminists have an issue with it!"

Just total ignorance about what's going on.

Orr... Maybe she identifies that she thinks too much about it and publicly speaks about it it could ruin her career. Maybe in a few years it'll be safer Naomi! Once those awful British women have done the hard work.

Maybe in a few years it'll be safer Naomi! Once those awful British women have done the hard work.

Of course at that point she'll say she was always gender critical.

Agreed. Also, love that username, got an ear worm now!

Edit, pants! Was meant to reply to @WhichOfThePickwickTripletsDidIt

MargotBamborough · 27/09/2023 09:47

They could do an absolute U-turn on trans issues tomorrow, say, "A woman is an adult human female. Trans women are adult human males. We will repeal the Gender Recognition Act and strengthen the Equality Act to ensure that single sex spaces are protected. etc

That's splendid! I'd recommend sending it to Starmer, but he's probably too much of a hidebound coward to pay it the heed it richly deserves.

I heard her too. I am flummoxed that she thinks this is only about “gender conformity”. Can she be that bloody ignorant?!

Yes, she can.

Bubbles/silos/echo chambers are very real and effective. If one doesn't deliberately and consciously make the effort to escape them, largely by reading widely and by constantly questioning evidence.

Wtf with this ongoing ‘it just doesn’t make sense to li’l old me’ act. Does she honestly expect everyone to believe she simply doesn’t understand the key arguments? Stop it at once Naomi 🤨

(Apologies for the earworm @LaLoba !)

Trans activists:

Your gender is different to your sex. Everyone is assigned a sex at birth. This definitely happens at birth; it is just a coincidence that the sex assigned at birth almost always matches the genitalia that were seen on the ultrasound five months previously and/or the genetic karyotype revealed in the NIPT performed in the first trimester. Gender identity is innate. Whether you are a boy, girl, man, woman or something else depends on your gender identity, not your sex. The words for the sexes are male, female and intersex. The words for the different genders are male, female, non-binary, genderfluid, catgender, agender and there are also about 65 other ones. There are usually only two categories for toilets, prisons, domestic violence shelters and sports but they are definitely supposed to be organised according to gender, not sex. Nobody is confusing sex and gender, even though we use the same words for both. Everyone has a gender identity. If your gender identity aligns with your sex assigned at birth you are cisgender. If your gender identity does not align with your sex assigned at birth you are transgender. It is not possible to describe what a gender identity is or what features it has because it is different for each individual. But trans women and women share the same gender identity which makes them the same. Your genitals and other sex characteristics aren't what makes you a man or a woman. But trans kids need puberty blockers to prevent them from going through the wrong puberty and trans people should have the right to use hormones and have surgery to make them resemble the opposite sex, even though gender is what matters, not sex. Defining women according to their biological sex is regressive and anti-feminist. Defining them as people who embrace femininity is progressive and inclusive. Trans women cannot possibly share single sex spaces with male people because this would be dangerous for them. Women need to share single sex spaces with trans women even if they are convicted rapists and if they think this makes them unsafe they are just being bigoted. Trans women should be allowed to compete in women's sports because otherwise they will feel excluded and be very sad. Women should not object to this and if being pushed out of their own sports by trans women makes them feel excluded and sad it is because they are bigots. Everyone should refer to trans people using the terminology and pronouns they choose. Everyone should also refer to other people using the terminology trans people decide. Anyone who objects to being called "cis" or a "person with a cervix" is a bigot.

Naomi Klein:

That makes total sense.

Gender critical feminists:

Biological sex is binary and immutable and sometimes this matters. Not everyone has a gender identity. Trans people's rights and safety matter, but so do women's. It's not hatred to say that sometimes women and girls need their own single sex spaces for reasons of safety, dignity and fairness. Oh and we shouldn't be allowing trans identifying children to medically transition without first undergoing extensive exploratory talk therapy and ensuring that rigorous standards of safeguarding and medical ethics are observed.

Naomi Klein:

I just... don't understand.

I would guess she may not really have a good grasp of either of those sets of ideas.

For all that gender ideology is all over the media in Canada, it isn't being laid out in a systematic way.

The main things published around kids being "helped," "gender affirming care" and so on. A lot of Canadians really think transgenderism is about a medical diagnosis, like being intersex. They tend to think of homosexuality in the same way - there is some genetic or other physical difference and people are born that way, and there isn't anything more to it. They often seem to imagine that they are biologically related variations of human beings. A lot of people believe in the hormone wash theory.

I don't know how we are going to get the message across when so many people are complete imbeciles.

I put a lot of blame on medical and scientific institutions and individuals.

The majority of people, even educated ones, are very dependent on specialized experts in areas like this. They are used to hearing about unbelievable, true things that they have no way to confirm for themselves in the sciences.

Canadians in particular are very trusting of these kinds of institutions. It's why the whole covid narrative went the way it did here, with any kind of push-back or questions being almost completely squashed by the media.

I don't think you'll see much movement in Canada until there is some plain speaking from doctors and scientists.

I'm reading Doppelgänger at the minute and came on here to see if there was a thread about it in this topic area as reading it is just SO FRUSTRATING.

How can such an intelligent woman have such a blind spot when it comes to this? She just dismisses women "who conflate gender neutral bathrooms with sexual assault" without giving the issue any thought or argument. It's just a given that to be GC is to be in the wrong but there is no rationale put forwardas to why she thinks it is the case. Maybe part of it is her looking at it from a North American perspective but jeez, I'm just banging my head against a wall reading it.

The reason she doesn’t understand GC feminism is very straightforward - she’s scared to try, because GC is the only logical position to take. It is not possible for people to change sex. Gender is just a set of outdated stereotypes.

I'm reading Doppelganger and just had to check if there was a thread on this. It's just so frustrating, Klein writes so well and is so clear eyed on many issues but this is a blind spot.