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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is free speech for everyone, including Russell Brand?

247 replies

Appalonia · 23/09/2023 17:47

Firstly I want to say I 100% believe the victims and think he should be held accountable for what he's done. But the demonetising of his YouTube channel, and being basically scrubbed from all media channels doesn't sit well with me. And, this is creating a massive backlash online from the many pp who already think these allegations have only come out now as ' The Establishment ' doesn't like what he's saying.

So many women have been 'cancelled' for saying things like men aren't women and women need safe spaces ( JKR ) and more recently Roisin Murphy for objecting to puberty blockers. It's tricky, but if we believe in free speech for us, shouldn't it be the same for everyone?

OP posts:
MalagaNights · 24/09/2023 18:52

CoughingMajoress · 24/09/2023 18:40

What exactly what your intention in starting a thread in Feminist Chat to defend a rapist, push MRA views, try exploit GC feminism by trying to align GC views with powerful sexual predators who are part of the elite establishment, and hurl nonstop abuse, slurs, and insults at GC feminists when challenged?

Do you actually think screaming bigoted slur terms at women will make anyone believe that you're on this thread in good faith?

But if you really were a YouTube can do whatever they like purist and support them shutting down anything they don't like, at least that would be consistent.

Yes, as I've said repeatedly, I believe that private business should be allowed to decline to pay money to anyone they dislike or disagree with for any reason (with the exception of discrimination against protected classes), as long as they are not censoring their ability to share content. I actually think that social media platforms need to do more to remove offensive content, eg Neo Nazi propaganda.

You are also conflating a coffee shop with the largest platform for sharing information in the world.

So your argument is that whether a private organisation is allowed free speech or not depends on how big they are? At what size do you lose the right to be allowed to decide who to pay money to? So if I own one coffee shop, I'm allowed to not hire someone to sing "Punch a TERF", but that coffee shop spreads to become an international chain, I suddenly lose that right?

Anyway it's not true. Facebook is larger than YouTube, other social media platforms are not that far behind YouTube. TikTok has a billion users per month. Plenty of platforms created specifically for people with right wing beliefs are far more likely to generate a specific audience.

All of which is irrelevant, since Brand hasn't been banned or censored in any way. He can still upload anything he likes to YouTube.

No one's 'aligning' GC women with sexual predators just using 2 very different examples to illustrate a principle.

So just to be very clear? You are fine with YouTube choosing to remove Helen Joyce?

Startingagainandagain · 24/09/2023 18:52

Brand has a right of free speech (although personally I think he is digging his own grave every time he opens his mouth in another online video...).

But equally private companies have a right not to want to associate themselves with people like him and to decide whether they want to promote/host his videos or not. They are not a public service...

Freedom goes both way.

And the women who he allegedly assaulted also have the right to make their voices heard and to get justice.

Brand can always publish his own videos on his own website, blog or whatever.

MalagaNights · 24/09/2023 18:53

What's with the deletions?

I

SerafinasGoose · 24/09/2023 18:55

Watchkeys · 23/09/2023 17:56

He can still say what he wants, can't he? YouTube isn't a human right, but free speech is. They're not the same thing.

You use a platform, you abide by that platform's code of conduct. It's very straightforward.

If I'd had an inappropriate relationship with a student of mine, or had had a number of allegations of that kind of misconduct thrown my way, I'd be out of a job. At the very least, I'd be suspended until these allegations were proven or otherwise. In the meantime, I have no remit to go around saying and doing precisely as I please ... because ... 'free speech'.

Same goes for this guy. That platform has ultimate jurisdiction over content they do and don't wish to host. He can go around saying and doing as he likes, but not using the media platform owned by someone else to do so. If they find his behaviour objectionable, then they are well within their rights to refuse to host.

There's a ridiculously naive premise that unless someone's convicted of a criminal offence in a court of law they have carte blanche to say and do precisely as they please. It isn't so. And I'd caution the many people who believe (or profess to believe) it IS so, to go and have a read of their contract of employment. 'Bringing the procession into disrepute' is a phrase they could also do to Google.

Prince Andrew hasn't been convicted of a criminal offence either. But he's certainly been pictured hanging out with known sex offenders, AFTER their conviction. And if you seriously believe this is a fit person to represent the UK as a global diplomat, you need your bumps felt, criminal offence or no criminal offence. A sleaze is not a good representative for a country, or a social media platform, or a broadcaster, or for that matter, a home for escaped slugs.

Same goes for the unfathomable public defence of the disgusting, misogynistic, predatory Brand.

TooBigForMyBoots · 24/09/2023 18:55

MalagaNights · 24/09/2023 18:19

Also if you are a YouTube can do whatever they like because they're a private company purist, I presume you're ok with Helen Joyce being removed?

If they can do what they like it's not just about demonetising surely you believe they can just remove whoever they want too? It's their company right?

Are you one of literal violence people?🤦‍♀️

Expressing an opinion is not the same as being a sex offender.🤷‍♀️

TeenEyeroll · 24/09/2023 18:56

MalagaNights · 24/09/2023 18:53

What's with the deletions?

I

It’s probably safer to wait another day before posting anything else.

CoughingMajoress · 24/09/2023 18:59

So just to be very clear? You are fine with YouTube choosing to remove Helen Joyce?

Has she been removed, or did YouTube say "you can post whatever you like, we just won't pay you for it"? Because if she was in fact removed, and you're comparing her to Brand (who was not and has not been removed) then that's a false analogy and offensive to GC feminists.

I am still waiting for you to say whether you believe I have the right to not hire a musician who wants to sing "Punch a TERF" in my coffee shop or not. You answer my question, and I'll answer yours.

Brand can always publish his own videos on his own website, blog or whatever.

I completely, 100% agree with you, Startingagainandagain, but I think it's important to note that there's nothing stopping him from posting videos to YouTube.

What's with the deletions?
They were deleted for calling other posters slur terms for mentally disabled people.

TeenEyeroll · 24/09/2023 19:02

Ftr - was responding to this particular poster, not ‘other posters’ and it was a retort regarding the ‘MRA’ accusations being liberally thrown around in a seemingly calculated manner.

TeenEyeroll · 24/09/2023 19:03

For those who have eyes to see and all that.

CoughingMajoress · 24/09/2023 19:05

TeenEyeroll · 24/09/2023 19:02

Ftr - was responding to this particular poster, not ‘other posters’ and it was a retort regarding the ‘MRA’ accusations being liberally thrown around in a seemingly calculated manner.

And you believed the best way to respond was to call a fellow Mumsnetter an offensive slur term for a mentally disabled person?

You do realise that Mumsnet Talk Guidelines ban troll hunting, or do you also regard MN having rules as "censorship", denial of "free speech", and them being "moral arbiters"?

MalagaNights · 24/09/2023 19:06

CoughingMajoress · 24/09/2023 18:59

So just to be very clear? You are fine with YouTube choosing to remove Helen Joyce?

Has she been removed, or did YouTube say "you can post whatever you like, we just won't pay you for it"? Because if she was in fact removed, and you're comparing her to Brand (who was not and has not been removed) then that's a false analogy and offensive to GC feminists.

I am still waiting for you to say whether you believe I have the right to not hire a musician who wants to sing "Punch a TERF" in my coffee shop or not. You answer my question, and I'll answer yours.

Brand can always publish his own videos on his own website, blog or whatever.

I completely, 100% agree with you, Startingagainandagain, but I think it's important to note that there's nothing stopping him from posting videos to YouTube.

What's with the deletions?
They were deleted for calling other posters slur terms for mentally disabled people.

Yes you have the right to not have the musician in your coffee shop.

If you can ban the musician, YouTube can ban Helen Joyce? Is that your position?

Mine is a coffee shop is different from YouTube and different principles should be applied.

PorcelinaV · 24/09/2023 19:08

But equally private companies have a right not to want to associate themselves with people like him and to decide whether they want to promote/host his videos or not. They are not a public service...

We regulate private companies in all sorts of ways for the public good.

If some private companies were prevented from censorship in some circumstances, (a) it wouldn't be a threat to their reputation to "associate" because everyone would know it was a requirement, (b) the company has a free choice if they want to participate in that kind of regulatory environment or not. Just as, you can't operate other businesses unless you accept the regulations and of course they may change over time.

Advertising and payments make things more complicated. I'm just saying that in theory we could have regulations on the largest platforms to prevent censorship.

Oh no, we have placed controls on mega corporations, won't someone think of their freedom!

MalagaNights · 24/09/2023 19:10

Not everyone who disagrees with you is an MRA.

You don't have to be offended on behalf of all GC feminists. Most of them can probably understand a comparison to establish principle from aligning with neo fascists.

At least I hope so.

CoughingMajoress · 24/09/2023 19:14

If you can ban the musician, YouTube can ban Helen Joyce? Is that your position?

Was she banned? YouTube haven't banned Russell Brand.

Yes you have the right to not have the musician in your coffee shop.

So at what point/size does a private commercial business lose the right to decide who they will pay money to and who they won't pay money to?

MalagaNights · 24/09/2023 19:24

Yes she was banned.
No RB hasn't been banned.

Is your position that YouTube as a private company have a right to demonetise at their discretion but not ban?

Why is that?

MalagaNights · 24/09/2023 19:26

So at what point/size does a private commercial business lose the right to decide who they will pay money to and who they won't pay money to?

Now you are asking the right question.
Somewhere between a coffee shop and YouTube.

Coyoacan · 24/09/2023 19:29

Yep I'm perfectly fine with any random private commercial enterprise not paying money to someone I like. Since no one is entitled to celebrity, and no one is entitled to be paid money for their views

Except that YouTube depends on its content providers, just like a supermarket depends on its suppliers.

MalagaNights · 24/09/2023 19:36

TooBigForMyBoots · 24/09/2023 18:55

Are you one of literal violence people?🤦‍♀️

Expressing an opinion is not the same as being a sex offender.🤷‍♀️

He's not a sex offender.

He's been accused. In the media.

Are you one of the people who doesn't know the difference or the importance of the difference?

ketchup07070 · 24/09/2023 19:43

I don't understand why the videos are still up on youtube. If the company is taking a moral stand, or not wanting him to publicise himself in the light of recent allegations, why would they leave them up?

CoughingMajoress · 24/09/2023 19:47

MalagaNights · 24/09/2023 19:36

He's not a sex offender.

He's been accused. In the media.

Are you one of the people who doesn't know the difference or the importance of the difference?

He once went on the radio and bragged about refusing to film a scene in a movie until the makeup artist showed him her breasts.

In 2006, he had this exchange in a TV interview:
Interviewer: “Are you a more successful sexual predator now you don’t drink?”
Brand: “Yes, but I resent the word ‘predator’. “I like to think of myself as a conduit of natural forces. After all, the most natural thing in the world for people to do is fuck, isn’t it? And people want to do it, so all you have to do is remove all the reasons why women don’t actually go through with it, like pride and reputation. You just have to unpick the conditions stopping women going straight to bed with you."

That's just two examples (I could have provided a hundred) where his own words paint him as sexually predatory.

I obviously don't know whether he is or is not factually guilty of the specific rapes he's accused of, but he's obviously sexually predatory. People are allowed to form opinions on things based on the evidence of their own ears and eyes.

Innocent until proven guilty just means you can't be deprived of your liberty without a trial (and even then there are legal exceptions), it has no bearing outside of the courts. No one has tried to lock Brand up without a trial or prevent him from speaking.

And I think it's says everything that the same posters crying that he's been "censored" and denied "free speech" just because his channel has been demonetised (but not removed) are the same ones defending his innocence.

DysonSpheres · 24/09/2023 19:50

Disclaimer: I haven't read the full thread.

I disagree vehemently with Brand being demonetised by YT because these private companies Facebook, X, TikTok etc increasingly (well they do) operate as the Public Square and there is yet no hard evidence of him doing anything that violates their conduct code.

I do not like the increasingly close and pentagrammic collaboration of NGOs, Big Business, Big Tech, Big Media and Government. It is not a desirable thing to anyone with sense, and it is dangerous to the notion of democracy. Yet, over the years that collaboration has become increasingly and more overt. Where is the independence? The MSM publish allegations against Brand and in mere hours he is demonetised by a major online streaming platform. A platform he uses to make money. For me the resemblance to the punitive actions of social credit systems is too similar for comfort.

Sure, Brand doesn't depend on that money, but it takes little imagination to consider that increasingly many people's major source of income is generated online. Should a company be able to easily shut down your source of revenue on the basis of allegations? What's next, you say something the government doesn't like and your online income is shut down? What if you're not so rich and rely on that income to eat or pay your rent or mortgage? Should you have to consider the status of your personal life in order state your opinion? We saw protestors in Canada have their bank accounts frozen and we saw Nigel Farage have his account closed. Both cases involved unpopular political actions and opinions. Both resulted in threats to income and fiscal mobility.

There used to be a time that people jealously defended against any threats to their personal freedoms and liberties. However, in the last 10 years (and most definitely the last 4) I notice the strange phenomenon of people actually arguing for their freedoms to be curtailed, ostensibly on the basis of doing what seems to be bracketed as a 'good'. It is often a fatal exercise in short term thinking. Thinking generated by emotions such as fear, anger and dislike rather than objective logic.

We see this with climate change politics. People often argue for less rights for themselves and their children. They want a carbon credit system, they want to not be able to travel freely, and they want to not have the option of what to eat, or the option of buying new clothes in order to 'save the planet'. They effectively want tyrannical Big Government. It is very strange to me everytime I observe this, as it seems so counterintuitive.

You might hate RB at the moment, but arguing that private companies that operate as the public square should be able to demonetise anyone (on their platform on the basis of vaguely written clauses in their contracts, open to interpretation as they wish) instead of on the basis of solid, fair & valid principles of democracy, and thinking it won't come and bite you at some point in the future counts as such in my mind. Ultimately, self-destructive in the long term. It is interesting to see people being manipulated into legitimising it.

ketchup07070 · 24/09/2023 19:53

Does anyone know if yt has demonetised the videos of monkey abuse yet?

MalagaNights · 24/09/2023 20:00

CoughingMajoress · 24/09/2023 19:47

He once went on the radio and bragged about refusing to film a scene in a movie until the makeup artist showed him her breasts.

In 2006, he had this exchange in a TV interview:
Interviewer: “Are you a more successful sexual predator now you don’t drink?”
Brand: “Yes, but I resent the word ‘predator’. “I like to think of myself as a conduit of natural forces. After all, the most natural thing in the world for people to do is fuck, isn’t it? And people want to do it, so all you have to do is remove all the reasons why women don’t actually go through with it, like pride and reputation. You just have to unpick the conditions stopping women going straight to bed with you."

That's just two examples (I could have provided a hundred) where his own words paint him as sexually predatory.

I obviously don't know whether he is or is not factually guilty of the specific rapes he's accused of, but he's obviously sexually predatory. People are allowed to form opinions on things based on the evidence of their own ears and eyes.

Innocent until proven guilty just means you can't be deprived of your liberty without a trial (and even then there are legal exceptions), it has no bearing outside of the courts. No one has tried to lock Brand up without a trial or prevent him from speaking.

And I think it's says everything that the same posters crying that he's been "censored" and denied "free speech" just because his channel has been demonetised (but not removed) are the same ones defending his innocence.

I'm not claiming he's innocent because I don't know. And neither do you.

We do both know he was a sleazy scumbag we've known that for years.

Do you want all the sleazy scumbags banned or just demonitised or both?

All the rappers being thrown off YouTube or demonitised would be a sight.

But I'm still in favour of let people be sleazy scumbags and let us judge them.

Coyoacan · 24/09/2023 20:24

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

TooBigForMyBoots · 24/09/2023 20:26

MalagaNights · 24/09/2023 19:36

He's not a sex offender.

He's been accused. In the media.

Are you one of the people who doesn't know the difference or the importance of the difference?

He is a sex offender. Cornering a woman and holding your penis out in front of her face is the sex offence of Indecent Exposure. I know he did this, because he said he did it on air and his victim reported it to his employers at the time.

Why do you believe he didn't @MalagaNights?

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