Let's define 'genderism' and 'gender critical views'

[ArabeIIaScott]

We already have a definition of 'gender critical views', thanks to Maya Forstater and Allison Bailey:

'Gender-critical beliefs include the belief that sex is biological and immutable, people cannot change their sex and sex is distinct from gender-identity.'

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/employment-tribunal-rulings-on-gender-critical-beliefs-in-the-workplace/

I'm down with that.

So do we have a working definition of 'genderism'? I don't think there's a legal one, as yet, is there? But I think it would be really helpful to have the set of beliefs that comprise genderism clearly defined.

Presumably the converse/inverse?

'sex is a construct and mutable, people can change sex, and sex and gender are interchangeable'?

'sex is a construct and mutable, people can change sex, and sex and gender are interchangeable'?

”and our status and place in society is determined by our internal conscious self perception of where we fit along that construct, a self-perception and expression that is somehow separate to the rest of our personality and arises from a part of our brain that can be both fixed/innate or fluid, and separate from the rest of our body, either an innate/fluid gendered brain or innate/fluid gendered soul*.”

*TBD.

Sorry, not very snappy. I don’t think Samuel Johnson would have accepted that!

😁

Yes, it's always going to be hard to condense down. I just think it would be really helpful to see the edges of genderism.

If civil servants are being taught one version/belief/worldview, I want everyone to be very clear on what that is. (By 'everyone', I mean the general public!).

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/09/22/woke-takeover-whitehall-risks-government-policy-simon-case/

I can't put it in any other way than just sexist

I agree a better definition is needed but no idea how to describe it!

It'd be great if (a) genderist supporter(s) would chip in here. I think it's really helpful for everyone if we can get a consensus on what the definition is.

sex is distinct from gender-identity >>>>

Gender identity is your sex?

It's just plain sexist!

The thing is that it seems to be mixed in with sexuality under "genderist" terms.

Which GC belief isn't; it's distinctly different.

When I first heard the phrase gender critical I really liked it because it seemed to signal more than just a belief that sex is immutable, and include an implication of a theoretical engagement with gender as a concept and an understanding of the power relations inherent in masculinity and femininity as cultural constructions... I don't know whether this was its original meaning, but it is certainly not how most people use it today, which I think is a pity.

Agree entirely. It was born out of feminist critique of stereotyping. It's an error to reduce that down to the definition given above - that 'sex is biological and immutable'. But that's where we are right now.

The term has been hollowed out and now includes such a broad sector of the populace as to be almost meaningless.

Not many people really believe that sex is something we can change at will.

Nevertheless, if there are two positions in this argument, I would like them to be clearly defined.

So if that's what we have for 'gender critical' right now, what do we have for 'genderist'?

'Sex is a matter of choice' - does that work?

The idea of gender as a concept is really important and useful if you're talking about and tackling issues that women (and men actually) face across society and the world.

I always took gender critical to be about that too.

It's critical of gender stereotyping in terms of cultural implications as well as more consumerist stuff.

Started writing that ages ago - sorry!

Sex is a matter of choice - probably what they'd say.

Except that we'd need a definition of what sex is....

I see gender as the interaction between society and one's sex.

Sex comes first, gender follows, and it is the collection of socially constructed expectations when people interact in a society; to me, then, gender is all of the superficial ephemera, fashions and behaviours that might be expected of women and men, because they are women and men.

I don't believe in a gender identity and there is no apparent evidence for one, though I accept some people believe that it exists. Genderism would be an unevidenced belief in the existence of gender identity.

Gender critical beliefs:

Gender critical beliefs include the belief that (a) sex is biological and immutable, (b) people cannot change their sex, (c) sex is distinct from gender identity, which not everyone has, (d) everyone is either female or male, (e) what makes someone a woman or a man is their sex, not their gender identity, and (f) gender is based on societally constructed stereotypes about men and when which are harmful to both sexes and as such is not a legitimate basis on which to organise society.

Gender identity theory:

Gender identity theory consists of the belief that everyone has some form of gender identity, that most people's gender identity corresponds to their biological sex but some people's gender identity corresponds to the opposite biological sex or to neither biological sex, and that it is someone's gender identity and not their biological sex which determines whether they are a woman, a man, or neither a woman nor a man. Some proponents of gender identity theory believe it is possible for humans to change their biological sex to match their gender identity through pharmalogical and/or surgical methods.

Genderists believe there is a thing called gender that is expressed via clothes, hair etc, that is immutable (despite the fact that conventions around hair and clothing styles a very varied over space and time) and that it is so much more important than sex that people should be encouraged to poison and mutilate their bodies so that they match their chosen clothing.

They may be socially liberal or rigidly illiberal - Iran is a genderist state, giving people with same SEX atraction a choice between poisoning and mutilation, (aka gender reassignment) or death. Genderist 'liberals' have been known to criticise western women for choosing the traditional (since the 1960s) short hair, flat shoes and trousers presentation style many of us grew up with.

Basically they hate woman - even female genderists hate women.

A person who approves of gender stereotypes is, by definition, a genderist, whether they are homophobic, or gay, or with gay friends, trans, friendly with individual trans people, or hostile to trans people. If they believe in gender, they are genderist.

Gender critical people do not believe in gender, or in the concept of 'a sense of gender'. Gender critical people believe in sex as a reality, and also believe that sex is not a thing that should define a person's clothes, habits, character or way of life.

Agree. I still use it to mean this. For me, being a feminist means criticising all aspects of gender.

I like to point out that fundamentally genderists believe in the same gender as traditional small c conservatives. The two positions differ in their prescriptions for people who don't conform, but the gender boxes are the same and both genderists and trad conservatives prioritise males.

Anyone who uses the word 'feminine' in a non-grammatical context should be suspected of genderism.

That looks pretty accurate to me.

Genderists: a group of people who believe that collections of sex based stereotypes are more important in society than biological sex for the purposes of categorisation.

They are so wedded to this idea that they will often refuse to believe that the opposite view, which recognises the importance of biological sex over the stereotypical "gender" imposed by society, is legitimate in any sense, they don't see any conflict because they don't accept that you can hold the latter view and be a moral person, let alone morally correct, and when they do see people harmed by it (ie by male rapists in women's prisons etc) they dismiss them as collateral damage, for the "greater good" of their genderist worldview as they perceive it.