Need to vent! It’s either a baby boy or a baby girl!

[HeadAgainstWall0923]

I’m doing some online training at the moment related to labour and birth and whenever it makes reference to the newborn they will say “A baby that is assigned male at birth or a baby that is assigned female at birth.”

For example, “an infant that is born and is assigned male at birth may have more vernex than a baby who is born and assigned female at birth.”

And this is in reference to babies that are less than 5 minutes old!

I’ve heard it and seen it written down about 20 times now and it’s driving me mad!

During the section on labour I kept having to hear phrases like:

When the infant is positioned correctly in the person’s womb….

When the infant is below the parent’s pelvic bone….

The parent’s contractions will intensify as their body prepares to deliver the infant…

When the infant exits the parent’s body….

When the infant is placed on the parent’s chest……

If the parent decides they want their infant to feed at the chest….

The words are MOTHER, WOMAN, SHE, HER and BREAST!

When it all stop?!

Weve been given a list of terms/acronyms that we have to use when writing in the infants notes etc and it actually says we need to refer to the infants as BAMAB or BAFAM for “baby assigned male at birth” or “baby assigned female at birth”.

One pupil asked what they should do if any of the parents objected to their infant being labeled/described with those acronyms and the lecturer actually said we need to continue using the terms and we must educate (her words) the parents as to why it’s important we/they use inclusive terms when talking about their infant.

I honestly couldn’t believe it.

So now we are supposed to tell parents that we won’t refer to their babies as being either male or female and that they shouldn’t be doing that either to ensure they aren’t being discriminatory?!

When will this madness stop?!

Where I lived (major city in the UK) when I had my DC they did not routinely scan after the dating scan at all. However there was a sign in the waiting room saying that they would not disclose the sex of babies so not to ask. I guess this was for people having later scans when required. This was in 2000/2001.

Here you are OP. This is the paper you need to have to hand with ready quotes and references to push back.

"We suggest consideration of the following questions: How can I be clear? How can I include the people who should be included and exclude the people who should be excluded? How can I ensure that people understand what I mean and can readily recognize themselves? How can I avoid dehumanizing language? Does it make sense to apply a gendered understanding of words or a sexed understanding? Am I engaging in cultural imperialism or improper use of privilege by requiring others to use language in a particular way?"

You could try innocently saying "I'm worried I/we am/are engaging in cultural imperialism and improper use of privilege through use of these terms which many people don't understand" or something along those lines and see what they say to that.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgwh.2022.818856

"Congratulations, it's a BAMAB!"

Also not so very long ago they definitely had different growth charts for girls and boys.
Do they still have those or have they decided all babies grow at the same rate?

They still have separate charts but one is titled “baby assigned male at birth” and the other is “baby assigned female at birth”.

So they recognise that infants of different sexes grow at different rates, but they aren’t allowed to have male/female charts as then we are deciding for the infant what sex they are when actually it’s the infants decision to make.

@HeadAgainstWall0923 are you able to share the name of the training course? Is it a British organisation?

“She’s got a globally recognised qualification….”

What qualification would that be?

“Gender is very fluid and so it will be up to the individual infant as to what they wish to be when they are old enough and not something for us to temporarily decide on their behalf.”

So how long do the poor parents wait to discover whether their child is male or female? It would be years! This is just so stupid and illogical and downright wrong. So harmful to the child. Honestly everyone has to stand up and say they are done with all this nonsense.

I imagine the parents roll their eyes and then announce the sex of their baby the minute they leave the postnatal ward.

I don’t think parents agree with, or want any of this nonsense. It’s being forced upon people and it’s just insane.

And to a person who asked, it’s in a role similar to being a private midwife / Doula. The training I’m doing is provided across America and Europe with the course content all being the same.

I was telling my sister about it yesterday and she couldn’t believe it either. I also have a friend who works as a midwife (in England) and she said that the use of such terms and thought processes certainly aren’t practiced within the NHS! Well not yet anyway……

My next class isn’t until next week but I shall be raising some questions that have been highlighted on this thread.

Is this some form of antenatal educator training? It's not NCT is it?

As others have said, you are the customer here and like any business this trainer really should listen to your feedback. Customer satisfaction and quality principles!

I wouldn’t be able to cope with hearing that each time I logged on so would be asking for a refund. Meantime I would carry on asking questions and why, why, why, why, why for each nonsense answer, make the trainer perhaps engage and actually think for a minute!

God no, lol.

I have done some training with NCT in the past and found it really, really good. Absolutely nothing like this.

If you think this is batshit, have a look at the latest from the GENERAL MEDICAL COUNCIL!!

I shall have a look once I’ve got my children to school 👍

Who on earth are you going to be working for that requires this training (I use that word loosely.)
If it's the NHS then you should be doing their training.

I would ask for my money back.

I left a job where they wanted us to use the term chest feeding so we didn't offend anyone who didn't have breasts and wanted to feed.

Women being removed and it’s wrong. Is this happening with men and their medical issues?

I have worked with breast feeding women in a professional capacity for just under 10 years now and not once has a woman ever objected to being referred to as the mother or asked me to use the term “chest feeding” or asked me to refer to them by another pronoun etc.

This whole thing is lunacy!

Once I have my qualification I will work on a self-employed basis so although I’m going through the motions with regards to what we “should” be saying/doing for the sake of my coursework and exams, I won’t be doing it when it actually come to my work unless a woman actually asks me to (which I’m pretty sure they won’t).

If babies are assigned male or female at birth then who does the assigning and based on what criteria? Because of we're waiting for the infant to be old enough to decide then we shouldn't be assigning them as anything surely. And if it's medical professionals doing it then it needs to be based on biological sex. Because what's to stop a parent saying they want their baby assigned as female despite the baby having a penis? Would they allow that? Because then the child would miss out on essential healthcare in the newborn checks. And if it is the HCP based on biological sex then why can't you use biologically male/female and the acronyms BM and BF?

Once I have my qualification I will work on a self-employed basis so although I’m going through the motions with regards to what we “should” be saying/doing for the sake of my coursework and exams, I won’t be doing it when it actually come to my work unless a woman actually asks me to (which I’m pretty sure they won’t).

The problem is your clients won't know you have done a course with this rubbish training and yet they may be impressed with the qualification and inclined to choose you on the basis of (respected?) credentials. Others doing the training may suck it up and clients choosing them will perhaps be somewhat put off once they are exposed to all this. Nearly all new mothers (with the exception of Freddy McConnell and other cult members) WANT to be called MOTHER. It is a social role many have longed for and value.
Why should their postnatal joy (if they are feeling it, I recognise not all do) be ruined by some officious person whose services THEY HAVE PAID FOR "educating" them?

I understand you just want to obtain the qualification and not cause trouble, but this really needs calling out.

If people with this qualification are coming into NHS hospitals and dictating language that midwives themselves are not using it's simply not on. Obviously, unfortunately, there are pockets of women where midwives are also using this sort of language but I believe most are resisting for now.

"Pockets of NHS" that should read

Also OP you have to ask yourself if there is any value at all to this training apart from being able to advertise a qualification for purposes of your future employment. Can you trust ANY of the information being taught under these circumstances?

I noticed asda now has spaces for parents with young children or "expectant parents".
I'm sure those spaces will be helpful for expectant dads..

You need to see my maternity notes from St. Mary's hospital. Pregnant persons, chest feeding.