Another Sport related incident

[ChishiyaBat]

I just saw a youtube video on this incident and thought i'd share. It is disgusting how she wasn't forewarned about her opponent, but she is amazing!
https://reduxx.info/us-video-of-trans-identified-male-competing-against-woman-in-jiu-jitsu-match-sparks-controversy/

It appears from the Reduxx article that she should be able to decline the fight, if she only wants to fight against women, and that a female only league would effectively be created, with an extra league for women who were willing to fight non-females. At least I think that’s what it means. If that’s the case, it’s particularly unfair that she wasn’t allowed to make an informed decision.

“NAGA does not require biological women to compete against transgender women. Instead, we give the choice to the biological women and if they decline, they compete in a division only with other biological women.”
NAGA then provided a link to their official policy, which reads: “For those who chose not to compete with the transgender female, we will inquire if they have an interest in entering a separate division which includes the transgender female. This additional division will be offered at no cost to those competitors. However, if individuals decline this opportunity, the transgender female will be directed to compete with the males in their respective weight and skill level category.”

That is what I took from the statement too. It is so unfair that she was not told beforehand, but hopefully some good will come of this incident.

Guy thought he could use his weight and height to make up for lack of skill and speed. Got his arse handed to him.

Imagine the battle of the legal arguments, where organisers generally prefer not to be sued.

One "we can't have biological men fight biological women, because we could get sued in case of serious injury".

Two "we can't stop men IDing in the women's section, because we could get sued for transphobia".

Which of these legal arguments just a decade ago would be expected to take precedence?

Which of these legal arguments today would take precedence?

That the threat to women's health and physical well-being would be viewed less of a legal risk than the threat to people's feelings, is another mindfuck in a long list of mindfucks.

Yep smashed woman skull or hurty men feelings, it shouldn't even be a decision, but here we are, it makes me so angry!

She is amazing. She was extremely gracious about it, including the hug she offered her TW opponent after her win, and she is absolutely right to say that she was not warned or giving the choice. Requiring women to just not mention their issues with mixed sex situations in case it upsets TW is ridiculous sexism.

The answer presented seems to me ideal: biological women offered the option of participating in mixed sex women identified categories, or women only categories; they choose and consent. Therefore having equality of care regarding consent and autonomy with male athletes with TQ+ identities, and ensuring no access issues for women athletes.

Can we have the same across the board please?

She is amazing and she was more gracious than I would have been for sure! I agree, then there would be no need for a controversial 3rd category if this was standard across all sports.

I don’t think women should be offered the opportunity to put themselves at risk in order to be kind. Female socialisation will cause many to say yes, when the answer should always be no, it’s not safe or fair.

Yes... Women are offered the chance to compete in a female league. Men too want to compete in that league so women are offered the chance to compete in a female league. Men too want to compete in that league....

Quite right.
And the current policy supports the idea that there is no male advantage if the man calls himself a woman. It's also as if the norm is that the women's competition is for men and women and they are doing some women a huge favour by creating a special, additional category for them.

Did he cheat? I mean in addition to being male in a women's contest. It looks like he grabbed her hair!

I am very concerned that female athletes will fear that refusing to compete with a male will mean they will be secretly black-listed.

I would have said yes to fighting a male in my younger years, but I was a brawler, male or female didn't matter to me. It would get a hard no from me now i'm older and wiser(and weaker) though. Also I think it is up to us to teach women and girls to speak up without fear, I am and always have been strong willed and know my own mind, but I know not all women are the same as me.

it's a smaller point than the sex-driven physiological differences but the huge discrepancy in weight between the two fighters presumably speaks to a lack of potential opponents and to a much lower female participation rate in the sport at all ages, which compounds the inevitable physical difference.

“For those who chose not to compete with the transgender female, we will inquire if they have an interest in entering a separate division which includes the transgender female. This additional division will be offered at no cost to those competitors. However, if individuals decline this opportunity, the transgender female will be directed to compete with the males in their respective weight and skill level category”

I must be extremely tired but I can’t make sense of that 🤔

Yes you are right that makes no sense.

Just realised I misunderstood. My previous post might not make any sense.

But I now realise this means that whether or not the male fighter fights against a woman in a special mixed sex bout depends on whether the woman fighter agrees. If she does not, the male fighter gets put back in the men's division. Effectively, women are not banned from fighting the male fighter if they agree, but if they don't want to they are not penalised and the male fighter reverts to the male division. In theory.

So it's a better policy than I gave them credit for but I think mixed sex fights should be banned because of the assymetrical and unacceptable risk to women.

While I absolutely agree in the case of boxing, MMA etc, I think there is an argument that could be made for permitting mixed sex matches (not fights) in BJJ where it’s far more about speed and skill than brute force. Obviously only if both athletes agree. Also, I’m sure this match was across weight classes? While injuries do obviously occur in BJJ it’s considered on of the lowest risk combat sports with generally very low injury rates.

BCCoach
The risk of injury may be lower than in other combat sports but that risk is still borne disproportionately by the woman. I'm approaching this from the point of view that fairness and safety are paramount, as opposed to validation of men's self-image or even allowing a super-confident, super-talented super-competitive woman the freedom to challenge herself further. If you allow such fights, there will be financial or other incentives offered, openly or covertly, to get women to participate. The appetite for watching a woman potentially be beaten up by a man is very great in some circles. The male fighter in this example may not have been a particularly talented exponent of jiu-jitsu but a different one might have been.
And if jiu-jitsu, why not boxing or MMA? It will be difficult to draw the line at the acceptable level of jeopardy for the woman. It makes more sense to draw a line between the sexes, except where the strength doesn't factor all, or an animal is providing the physical force. A woman training against a male fighter - ie deliberately giving herself a harder challenge than she is likely to face in a real match - would be a different matter.

*if you allow such matches

@Snowypeaks i definitely see your point with regards to contact sport. In non-contact sports (such as my own, cycling) I strongly believe that women should be permitted to compete against men if they want to - this has always happened unofficially (when there aren’t enough entrants to make a women’s race competitive) but is now enabled by the replacement of the men’s category with an open category and actually permits them to earn points while doing so. My main concern is that race organisers might have less incentive to run a women’s race when they can just run an open race instead.

@BCCoach
Absolutely agree in non-contact like cycling, running etc, where there is a good reason, or a women's event wouldn't be practicable - as a temporary/occasional/short term/fun event, and as long as the results are recorded separately. But I think the aim should be to provide women with women-only competitive environments as standard. In a roundabout way, what we are both now saying is that competition should be divided into Open and Women! Although I accept that in an Open category results would not automatically be recorded separately.

@Snowypeaks in cycling previously when women entered the men's race they weren't eligible for points, even if they placed. Now when they enter the open race they are, although the results are not recorded separately - it's not two separate competitions within a single race as it is with kids racing. This happened recently with one of my clubmates - she's a cat 3 but there were only 5 entries for the women's cat 3/4 race, which is below the minimum to get points so they all elected to race in with the open 3/4, and my clubmate actually made it into the points (top 10).

Unfortunately road racing in the UK is in serious doldrums at the moment and it's increasingly hard to fill a field, male or female - many dedicated road cyclists prefer to pop over the channel and race in Belgium on a weekend where it's far better supported and much safer. Cyclocross however is super-strong and we regularly see entries of 100+ women and girls week after week.

I know very little about cycling, I only watch racing in velodromes for big comps like the Olympics, etc, so I have a question about the points. I assume the points are related to where you place? So do the women race because some points that week/weekend are better than nothing, because there's no women's race? Even though they may finish lower down in an Open race?