To be concerned about trad/Conservative Influencers

[sleighbells00]

Does anyone feel concerned by the trad/conservative influencers targeting young people with these sorts of messages? I came across this video on YouTube, basically about how motherhood should not be a choice but that all women should fulfill this role. I love being a mother but I would hate for a young girl/woman to stumble across this and feel that her only path in life revolves around having children, women should live the lives that bring them happiness and fulfillment.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9G7mqAp-tDI&t=55s&pp=ygUQY2xhc3NpY2FsbHkgYWJieQ%3D%3D

Lol that’s a bit of a leap. I personally do not feel my womb or it’s ability to procreate is in any way central to my womanhood. For me, it’s actually an ability I’d rather not have because I don’t intend to put it to use, and preventing pregnancy is something of an annoyance as I can’t take hormonal contraception. I’ve felt this way innately since I was a child, absolutely nothing to do with gender ideology, it’s just how I feel. Although I will say that I have empathy with trans people in as much as I too feel my sense of self and gender is not linked to my biology. If other women’s ability to procreate though is central to their identity that’s absolutely fine! But many other childfree women feel like me (anecdotally from the childfree board here, Reddit, podcasts etc). That doesn’t mean we’re saying we’re not women, or are influenced by transgender people.

I’m afraid I don’t think simply birthing a child is a service to society in and of itself, though.

How do you see society surviving if no one ‘simply birthed a child’?

What do you feel is central to your 'womanhood'? Genuine question.

i was making personal comments by the way - I was recounting my observations of how the denial that 'being a woman' has anything to do with the sexed body and its functions - and only with internalised feelings about 'gender'

I wasn't making personal comment

@TedMullins
It shouldn’t be a given that all of the caring and home responsibilities fall to women as default, any more than it should be acceptable that men opt out of parenting completely. If a couple have chosen this dynamic then fair enough (but I don’t think it’s a choice made in a vacuum away from societal expectations and limitations). Obviously men can’t breastfeed so there’s some things they can’t do, but I do think there should be a baseline expectation of equal parenting and this facilitated better by society. I’d be happy for my childfree person’s taxes to go towards better childcare provision, for example
Of course this shouldn't be a given, but in my experience the woman in relationships tend to place more importance and a greater priority on the wellbeing of the children and the home than men. This isn't universal of course, but true in around 80% of the relationships I know of. Of course, socialisation is partly responsible but I think this only exacerbates a biological difference rather than creates the difference in the first place.

Women as a class have more of a biological urge to have children. Look at the number of threads on this board created by perimenopausal women seriously wondering if they should have one last child, when it is blatantly obvious to all outside observers that this would be pretty disastrous to the happy life they have created. Hormones and biology are real and can have a ridiculously strong influence on our decision making. Women have a different biological makeup to men and are therefore more likely to have the inexplicable intense urges towards babies and children than men.

I also think a lot of women want to instinctively spend time and effort raising the children when they're very young rather than simply having access to more and more free childcare hours. They don't want to send their tiny babies to nursery when they're a few months old and I think this is normal and natural. Look at what the babies of our closest animal relatives do and you can see that biology most often works through the females to protect and look after the very young. We may have evolved but we are foolish to think we can eradicate this entirely.

Men of course have an important part to play and absolutely need to be active and equal parents but this doesn't necessarily mean they need to behave in exactly the same way as women. Looking to erase sex difference isn't practical and helpful. Why can't we explore what these differences might be and how as a society we can better support each sex so that everyone can get their wants and needs met?

I really enjoyed being pregnant and giving birth. It is not often permisible or 'polite' to talk about having natural home births and how empowering they can be for a woman's sense of her self as a woman - and subsequent confidence in her body and in her sexuality. Though empowering it can certainly be.
That is empowerment as a woman ( an adult human female) rather than as a human being.

Human beings are capable of all sorts of feats, and they come in many varieties - but as a female human being it is difficult to deny that essentially female experiences don't or can't contribute to a sense of female empowerment.

That's not to say that all females must share in all types of female experienece. This not about judgement but about honesty about how powerful, and central, some of these experiences can be.

That’s a good question. I suppose for me I don’t actually feel inherently womanly, I feel more just like, a person. I don’t like the idea of masculine/feminine and set gender roles, I think those are largely societal inventions (apart from obvious biological differences). I like some stereotypically feminine things like pink and dresses and frilly blouses but I’ve also shaved my head and I never wear makeup. I don’t think appearance or taste is indicative of gender/sex though - I suppose I accept society perceives me as a woman and I don’t feel uncomfortable enough about that to want to refer to myself as anything else. Where I do feel like a woman is that I know statistically I face more of a threat from men and I can’t trust the law enforcement system especially when it comes to sexual assault, my health (including the reproductive system even if I don’t want to use it) can be under-researched and dismissed, and I’m subject to different judgements and expectations from society including ones that affect mothers.

honestly the continuing propagation of the human race isn’t something I think is essential. Many other species have gone extinct before us - many because of us - so I don’t think we as a race are or should be immune to that. I’m not antinatalist, I’m not against anyone having children if they want to, I just think the choice to procreate is a neutral one.

"I actually think society should be way more supportive of mothers by introducing things like free or heavily subsidised childcare, flexible working as standard, crèches on site at big companies, and a narrative shift to men being equal parents and picking up the same slack that tends to fall to women. I’m very in favour of the scandi model which makes genuine choice possible."

And yet even in societies that are extremely family-centric, such as the Nordic countries, birth rates are declining. In fact the strongest indicator for declining birthrate is economic stability and access to higher education. Educated women are actively choosing not to have families for the simple reason that they don't want to and all the government-issued incentives, church-issued admonishments, and tiktok videos aren't changing their minds. It's a fascinating phenomenon but one that will have huge long term consequences.

Well yes, if women simply don’t want children no amount of societal incentives will convince them. You could offer me a £1million annual income for the rest of my life to have kids and I’d still say no.

Of course, primarily we are human beings - and operate and function as such - but human beings additionally come in two sexed categories - with different biological functions ( even if not fulfilled) and differnt experiences which are shaped by those biological aspects and functions.

I have short hair and don't wear frilly dresses, nor do I like pink - but I don't see those things as having anything essential to do with being female; as you say those things are just gendered presentations - based on cultural fashion or expectation.

Do you feel or experience any positive associations or feelings about being female? All of the things you mention are negative associations, or they seem to be to me.

"And yet even in societies that are extremely family-centric, such as the Nordic countries, birth rates are declining... It's a fascinating phenomenon but one that will have huge long term consequences."

Yes. It will hopefully have consequences such as lowering human population on this planet to a sustainable level.

Relying on the children from people of other cultures to look after us is not sustainable, either.

If those countries have surplus population and we don't, why not?

That is, assuming you are talking about immigration where people from those countries settle here, work and pay their taxes, and therefore support the retirement of the aging home population.

Yes. It will hopefully have consequences such as lowering human population on this planet to a sustainable level.

Is there evidence (and I’m genuinely asking, I don’t know a lot about this) that the current population level isn’t sustainable? With the right changes of course.

I really want to enjoy motherhood but I feel that mothers are treated as merely a necessary evil. We get no respect and not nearly enough help, it's a constant grind. I have a decent job and bust my ass to do school runs etc so I do it all but am completely exhausted (exDH v little help -_- ).

Until society changes, I would not recommend.

"Surplus", according to who? Children are seen as wealth in many countries - and Britain and other western countries deep mining the talented and 'useful' children from other countries impoverishes them.

I guess I think being a woman or a man is neutral, but society (well, men) has made the experience of women in many ways worse than that of men. But if you take all that away and I just think about me and how I feel... I think I'd still say that it's neutral. I just am. I like my boobs I guess? I think vaginas are aesthetically nicer than penises? (I jest)

But I find it difficult to separate the ideas of 'being a woman' as purely a physical being, from 'being a woman' in terms of stereotypical traits invented by society like women are more nurturing, soft, polite, put others first etc, because frankly I'm none of those things and those generalisations really annoy me.

So for me it feels more like, physically I'm female and that's a neutral state, but the other behaviours and traits typically ascribed to women, I largely do find negative or at least very far from how I am as a person. I feel pride when I see women in the public eye really pushing boundaries and breaking the mould and going against these stereotypes, like a 70 year old climbing Everest or a single mum backpacking the world with a toddler. Then I feel like, yes, look what women are capable of beyond the box we put them in, so I suppose I only feel positive associations when a woman is demonstrating something unexpected or at odds with expectations. This is really interesting to think about.

I think this thread is plenty evidence of its central premise.....that there is a generalised and negative feeling towards having children which portrays being a mother ( in particular) as being necessarily restrictive, confining, imprisoning etc experience that young women should avoid at all costs; and that is without the climate change crew suggesting nobody should have any children ( apart from people in poor countries).

Because birth rates will eventually decrease in the countries whose main export is people too. It happened in Ireland (which was a net exporter of people for 150 years) and it is starting to happen in sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia as educational attainment for girls increases.

The biggest concern is that authoritarian regimes, when they realise the carrot isn't working, will use the stick. Hungary's natalist policies have done nothing to arrest population decline and you can bet that Orban will be looking at the next step - of course if we continue down that road we end up with Afghanistan.

I've been a single parent and it is tough......I've back-packed to festivals with a pram in tow, and it does make you resilient - you have to be; but it is definitely good to have a supportive partner when you have children. Having that means you can actually go off on your own on holiday some times - which I've done now and then - to Italy and to Sicily and on city breaks around Britain.

When you are a single parent you rely far more on child care and on grandparents ( if you live near to them - which i didn't). I also relied more on female friends - often living with other women and children.

You can have children and still be a unique human being with personal drives and passions and external interests - and still be able to fulfull those too.

In what countries are children "seen as wealth"? What does that actually mean? Also, it's simply not the case that immigration from developing countries to developed ones "impoverishes" developing countries - remittances are a net benefit to countries of origin and many countries actually gear their educational programmes to provide a net surplus of trained workers in the expectation of high levels of immigration: Cuba for example trains many more doctors than it requires, and India trains many more IT professionals than it requires domestically. And of course workers have agency and should be free to better themselves, economically and professionally - and for many people that involves moving elsewhere.

Is it progressive to view some countries as service economies and others ( such as your own) as client economies? What about each country being sustainable in itself - keeping things local was always the mantra of deep ecology.

Of course you can! If it sounded like I was implying most parents don't have their own identities or can't fulfil passions, that isn't what I meant at all.