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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Terfs in the House of Lords?

37 replies

IwantToRetire · 02/09/2023 20:37

Sensible letter from 25 members of the House of Lords on the offensive use of she to refer to a male criminal in the Telegraph.
https://twitter.com/StoatlyL/status/1697890524785504422

This tweet has the list of signatories https://twitter.com/StoatlyL/status/1697933246707753216

(I have tried to find this on the Telegraph web site but have failed, so sorry for those who find the image of the text hard to read.)

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DuesToTheDirt · 03/09/2023 21:45

CantThinkOfANameAtAll · 02/09/2023 23:03

Same here. Twenty years ago I wanted it abolished, thank goodness it's still here.

I've always been against it in principle, but for it in practice. They often have a longer-term view than the HoC, and many are experts in their field. There have been numerous occasions when they curb the excesses of elected polititians.

DeeKavCoffee · 09/09/2023 22:31

I thought TERF is/was a slur?

ArabeIIaScott · 09/09/2023 23:24

It is. Some people are 'reclaiming' it.

This happens quite a lot with slurs.

DeeKavCoffee · 09/09/2023 23:27

ArabeIIaScott · 09/09/2023 23:24

It is. Some people are 'reclaiming' it.

This happens quite a lot with slurs.

OK thanks for context. I thought TERF was created by gender critical people anyway, before there was even the GC term!!

ArabeIIaScott · 09/09/2023 23:30

Once upon a time, perhaps. But it's become a slur, mostly because of the way it's been applied to women, in conjunction with threats, abuse, etc.

This has been acknowledged in court in the UK.

DeeKavCoffee · 09/09/2023 23:32

Thanks. Rather confusing.

IwantToRetire · 10/09/2023 00:52

Sorry if anyone is upset with Terf in the title.

For me it not thinking men TRAs/MRAs who think they can make words misogynistic weapons.

It a way of laughing at them and wearing them with pride. Well not pride obviously but easily.

Dont forget that prior to the formation of the Women's Liberation the word "woman" was used as a derogatory way of talking about biological females. ie "that dreadful woman". Men used girl or lady ie lady wife and ... I cant remember.

So it was a deliberate policy to form the Women's Liberation Movement as a way of reclaiming a word that was accurate and being accurate about females to men it was a inferior or negative label.

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Bosky · 11/09/2023 06:18

IwantToRetire · 10/09/2023 00:52

Sorry if anyone is upset with Terf in the title.

For me it not thinking men TRAs/MRAs who think they can make words misogynistic weapons.

It a way of laughing at them and wearing them with pride. Well not pride obviously but easily.

Dont forget that prior to the formation of the Women's Liberation the word "woman" was used as a derogatory way of talking about biological females. ie "that dreadful woman". Men used girl or lady ie lady wife and ... I cant remember.

So it was a deliberate policy to form the Women's Liberation Movement as a way of reclaiming a word that was accurate and being accurate about females to men it was a inferior or negative label.

"Dont forget that prior to the formation of the Women's Liberation the word "woman" was used as a derogatory way of talking about biological females. ie "that dreadful woman". Men used girl or lady ie lady wife and ... I cant remember."

I had completely forgotten about that but now you mention it I have a vague memory of being reprimanded as a child for referring to someone as a "woman" rather than as a "lady".

Another vague memory of a discussion with some other children, where we were trying to work out what the rules were, ie. why was it "rude" or "disrespectful" to say "woman" rather than "lady"? What was the difference between a "woman" and a "lady"?

I think I had the impression that "woman" was another way of saying "slattern" or maybe a poor, dirty, raggedy person like a female tramp who you would feel sorry for. Or another impression, that maybe it was one of those rules to do with children having to say things in a certain way to be respectful to grown-ups but they could say what they liked about each other?

Then a bit older, pre-teen/early teens, I have a better memory of some older girls I was friends with being disparaging about use of "lady" as old-fashioned and patronising but that I was reluctant to give it up because it seemed cheeky to say "woman".

I must have become thoroughly reprogrammed at some point though because it has startled me a couple of times recently when I have been with a group of women and one of them, always someone much younger than me, has said something like, "So Ladies, what do we think about this?"

Is that way of talking making a come-back? Or did it never go away and its just that I wasn't hanging out with women who would use "ladies" in that context?

Those vague childhood memories of trying to make sense of "the language rules" and then the clearer memory of being schooled by older girls about what was now acceptable, it reminds me that you don't understand the cultural significance at that age. Grown-ups and older children know that the world is a certain way and you just have to learn and try to keep up.

The point when you start taking your lead from teachers and other children is when you start discounting your parents' views and ways of doing things as old-fashioned, so you disregard them.

This is what worries me so much about the current indoctrination starting at Primary and even Pre-School. It can be reversed, in the same way that I learned as a "middle years" child that it was no longer acceptable to say "lady".

Will "reprogramming" need to come from older children and teachers, from social media and "cultural media", rather than parents? From grand-parents rather than parents?

ArabeIIaScott · 11/09/2023 07:20

I think some of it can all happen fast and organically, Bosky.

If we have solid legal basis, and the media is held to accuracy.

But yes, we are seeing people who've been taught and now believe utter nonsense - that sex is malleable and arbitrary, that there are more than two sexes, etc.

That kind of mad shit will be hard to get past.

IwantToRetire · 11/09/2023 15:54

I think I had the impression that "woman" was another way of saying "slattern" or maybe a poor, dirty, raggedy person like a female tramp who you would feel sorry for.

I cant quite remember either, but had the impression that it was someone a bit vulgar, and a bit to overtly female (brazen) or maybe it was all about schooling us to be quiet and feminine, ie lady like.

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Bosky · 11/09/2023 17:22

IwantToRetire · 11/09/2023 15:54

I think I had the impression that "woman" was another way of saying "slattern" or maybe a poor, dirty, raggedy person like a female tramp who you would feel sorry for.

I cant quite remember either, but had the impression that it was someone a bit vulgar, and a bit to overtly female (brazen) or maybe it was all about schooling us to be quiet and feminine, ie lady like.

"maybe it was all about schooling us to be quiet and feminine, ie lady like."

That definitely came across in the move to reject "lady" in favour of "woman". "Ladies" were supposedly prim, compliant, posh, etc. I don't recall any favourable stereotypes being retained, instead they were transferred to "woman", eg, brave, strong, outspoken, independent, intelligent.

Definitely a class-based construction as much as feminist.

I have been trying to remember how I gained those impressions of the meaning/sub-text of "woman", ie. "slattern" or maybe a poor, dirty, raggedy person like a female tramp who you would feel sorry for.

I think children's books and especially their illustrations might have had a place, whether "Fairy/Folk Tales" or books like the "William" series. I would have to look at them to check.

All the books we had at home were either from my father's childhood that had somehow survived or they had been bought second hand in auction lots so they tended to be "old fashioned".

Interestingly, "Little Women" was a favourite, not "Little Ladies", so that bucks the trend, if there really was one rather than my memory playing tricks on me!

IwantToRetire · 11/09/2023 17:33

Interestingly, "Little Women" was a favourite, not "Little Ladies", so that bucks the trend, if there really was one rather than my memory playing tricks on me!

I think maybe this illustrates how much things can change in a generation, so what we experience growing up seemed like "this is how it is" rather than some social shift.

After all the word woman or women, as in the book title has been a positive thing.

Think of the WRVS - a much loved and missed organisation of women always on hand with cups of tea and sensible solutions to any number of crises, and even the WI.

So if the usage of the word changed some time after WWII I wonder why. Just as what happened and why did the media and everybody stop talking about someone's sex and start talking about gender.

Wouldn't it be great to think that just like the hippies faded away so will all the TRAs. But then the TRAs have so sucessfully infiltrated into places of power, not so likely they will fade away.

Imagine if the hippies had been equally sucessful and we were living in a society where politics and politicians where all products of hippy values!

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