Feminism vs Women's rights: why the division?

[TheTERFnextDoor]

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere.

Does anyone know why many women in the gender critical movement refer to themselves as "women's rights campaigners" (or a variation of this) and reject the term "feminist"?

KJK is one of the women who does this. I always find this surprising as, to me, she's one of the best feminists in the UK! I understand feminism as someone who stands up for the rights of women and girls. Therefore, to me, the terms are synonymous?

I'd appreciate some explanation from others.

I am a feminist but there are a number of people who call themselves feminists who are all about the penis people. They are generally lib fems so unfortunately not all feminists are feminists. Saying that you are fighting for women's rights helps to show the distinction

If you're talking about KJK in particular, she doesn't describe herself as a feminist because she has relatively traditional views regarding gender roles, so she doesn't align with a lot of academic feminist thought. We all have a right to disagree, no problem with me.

If you're talking more generally, gender critical people are often smeared as being "anti-trans", which isn't true for the most part, we're just looking at protecting the hard-won rights that women have accrued over years of fighting. To use a fairly old analogy, a dog charity isn't "anti-car" just because they work on behalf of dogs.

It’s a shame people call themselves feminists when, by centring men, they show they are very definitely not feminists. Feminists have a huge variety of opinions and politics — but prioritising men isn’t one of them!

There are many who consider themselves feminist (several of them my friends) who consider liberating the not-very-manly men from the patriarchy to be the work of feminism. I do not. I would still use the word for myself but be very wary that I cannot assume that someone else's beliefs will align with mine.

'KJK is one of the women who does this. I always find this surprising as, to me, she's one of the best feminists in the UK!'

I agree with you, however she said that she has had loads of grief from women who call themselves feminists, and doesn't want to be aligned with that group anymore. It's a shame but her choice of course

The same reason that some women who used to call themselves lesbians now call themselves female homosexuals.

It's a step away from the male-centric colonisation.

Women's rights used to linked with old-fashioned lib fem in the second wave. Feminism and women's liberation were more radical.

Personally, I think it's time that women's liberation made a came back.

Daren't use 'womyn' these days but I still like that term too :)

'Not only does she 'not allign with that group anymore', she's now planning on suing some of them for defamation.'

Didn't know that. Are you aware of any names? I know she's had some awful things said about her

I consider myself a feminist (a proper one 😉) but am loathe to say this in public as I've discovered a lot of people have a completely erroneous idea of feminism. Women's rights = simpler to understand.

Happy to be corrected - and I know there's little love lost between KJK and WPUK etc, - but I understood her defamation case was against the leadership of the Victoria Liberal Party?

I too have abandoned the term feminist. It is too nebulous and theoretical. I vehemently disagree with some of the theories and some who call themselves feminists. It is hard to know what the term really means now. Judith Butler is supposedly a feminist.

Women’s rights is easier to understand, it is more specific. For me I particularly focus on women’s rights in relation to childbearing and motherhood. Practical, physical realities.

I also care deeply about safeguarding of women and children and women’s health more generally.

Feminism has long been seen as a radical political position. Lots of people manage to find something within feminism that they disagree with. By using the phrase "women's rights" it emphasises how fundamental this particular issue is.

It also mirrors the language of TRAs. If their main argument is "trans rights ate human rights" then the argument "women's rights are human rights" completely neutralises that.

The official definition of feminism:
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/americanenglish/feminist#:~:text=noun-,noun,employment%20opportunities%20for%20single%20women.
Focus is on equality between the sexes. 'Same' rights as men.

In the context of being gender critical, the specific rights being defended (e.g. women's access to single-sex spaces, fair competition to sport) aren't on the basis of equality to men it's a problem that disproportionately affects women. Men can claim they're fine with women using their spaces (great for them, they get to see naked women in gym showers) , or compete in their sports (the women wouldn't win anyway).

But it's mainly the other way around where there's a problem.

To me ‘women’s rights’ is clear and simple. It’s insisting that our fundamental rights are respected.

feminism is harder to define and means different things to different people. It is more political, a bit more ‘left-wing’, more philosophical and academic. A bit nebulous. It also tends to irritate lots of men - and women, so although I do consider myself a feminist (according to my personal definition of the term) I wouldn’t necessarily label myself as one, because someone else might have an entirely different understanding of the word.

I also think the phrase ‘women’s rights’ emphasises the fact that we have particular needs due to our biology.

Because if you call yourself a feminist, you leave yourself open to being beaten over the head with it when someone disagrees with you. That's what happened with KJK I believe.

Other people, some self-declared GC feminists included, didn't think she was doing it right/she wasn't left-wing enough/talked to the wrong people etc so she went her own way instead.

Very well put.
I also think putting what you're fighting for in plain terms is better than any form of 'ism'. Of course you can't get away from classifying but then people get too distracted bandying various terms about without actually thinking about the problems they're trying to solve.

I broadly consider myself a feminist in that I believe in fighting for rights and freedoms for women but for me free speech is equally important and not all feminists believe in free speech and freedom of expression. It seems to me that KJK (and also Meghan Murphy) have grown tired of not being able to express themselves without the attempt by other women who call themselves feminists to shut them down and misrepresent their position for saying the "wrong" thing, talking to the wrong people, and generally not doing exactly as they are told.

I've come to prefer Women's Rights. It's more pragmatic and grounded on women's needs and the political structures here and now.

Feminism seems to have become more theoretical and Utopian. This is what has allowed all this Queer stuff to creep in. Let's reorganise and rethink the whole human species. A few individual women suffering here and now is insignificant.

I think that since the mass movement of feminism in the 1970’s that as a movement it became subsumed by other issues -like a giant wave and then the tide has gone out.

Many of the initial objectives of feminism- were achieved (for Western women) for example Maternity rights, equal employment rights and legislation against domestic violence.
Feminism started to be incorporated into general left wing academic theory campaigning for sex work to be legitimised, Intersectional feminism broadened the scope towards incorporating anti racism and academic feminism moved onto gender identity.

That meant that when the attack on women’s rights came feminists were no longer a force to be reckoned with, feminism that centres women doesn’t exist in academia anymore and women had lost the women’s studies courses etc to gender studies which centres men- a historical reversion to the norm.

So feminism as a movement is now a counterfeit movement which is fighting against women’s rights.

Because I’m not left wing which I believe modern feminism is. Liberalism has gotten weird which is how I find myself centre right now. I don’t believe sex work is work (exploitation to me), I don’t believe abortion up until birth is fine unless to save the mother or for medical purposes, I don’t believe in centering larping men who call themselves feminists because they’ve popped on some lippy, I don’t believe promiscuity empowers us (not slagging off women who enjoy it but I felt lied to) and I don’t agree with surrogacy. So basically, I don’t agree with left wing new age feminists on most core values.

In regards to GC feminists, they are the mean girls of the school to me. You have to accept their academic clap trap or you’re ousted/bullied from what I’ve experienced. They’re also horrifically middle class talking about working class women with absolutely no experience of being working class nor do they even try and listen to our experiences.

I believe in women’s liberation and women’s rights. But I’d like to discuss these issues, I don’t have to believe in something without question or discussion just to be a good woman’s ally. I also don’t want a world without good men nor do I believe women are faultless always. I also don’t agree with these nonsense diversity stats for women in the workplace - I say this as a woman in a STEM field. We need to be empowered not pitied.

So I consider myself a woman’s liberation supporter not a feminist.

I’m sure others will disagree!

Agree with this completely. Very well put.