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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kathleen Stock, Vogue & Bridges - the perfect Sunday morning read

63 replies

MrsOvertonsWindow · 27/08/2023 09:09

A wonderful humorous article in today's Sunday Times about Vogue's inability to find any sportswomen this year to include in their Vogue 25 women "power list". Instead they lauded Emily Bridges and gave Emily space to moan about the unfairness of insisting that women's cycling remains for women & threatening to fight British cycling in the courts & the streets

Well worth a read this Sunday morning (along with articles by Sarah Ditum and Hadley Freeman). Share token to enjoy:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/992bf3e8-43fd-11ee-bf34-ee777f6f2b5b?shareToken=51086949c8a70b63dc73442c3ab8e374

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Boiledbeetle · 27/08/2023 12:11

ChokkaQuokka · 27/08/2023 10:47

Great article, and the mention of Hannah Mouncey gives me an opportunity to link to Mouncey’s screenshotted tweet here twitter.com/RukhsanaSukhan/status/1387420970332262406?s=20

😳 what an absolute bell end!

RealityFan · 27/08/2023 12:14

Also, what about all those gay players in the game? With all the pinkwashing going on, there's been fewer players coming out in four decades (poor tragic Justin Fashanu the most pertinent example) then I have fingers on one hand.

Professional sport is toxic male culture writ large, gambling addictions, huge homophobia, and endemic misogyny, from coaches (hallo, Mr. Spanish transgressor of boundaries) etc.

Of course, pink bootlaces should do it...

arethereanyleftatall · 27/08/2023 12:18

I love Kathleen Stock. And it's absolutely the right approach to ridicule this farce, just as Ricky Gervais has done.
It will be laughed at in years to come, that we had to resort to science to avoid being called a bigot by suggesting men might have a physical advantage over women.

SauvignonBlanche · 27/08/2023 12:46

Thanks for sharing @MrsOvertonsWindow

BCCoach · 27/08/2023 12:54

Stock has made the same error that it seems so many commentators have made about the new BC, CTT and UCI policies. It doesn’t just apply to the elite category. It applies to ALL competition from grassroots racing up. It doesn’t matter whether you are racing at WorldTour level or a weekend warrior at your local town centre crit or club 10, the policies apply.

RealityFan · 27/08/2023 12:59

BCCoach · 27/08/2023 12:54

Stock has made the same error that it seems so many commentators have made about the new BC, CTT and UCI policies. It doesn’t just apply to the elite category. It applies to ALL competition from grassroots racing up. It doesn’t matter whether you are racing at WorldTour level or a weekend warrior at your local town centre crit or club 10, the policies apply.

That's very good to hear. So, no more men in women's Parkrun?

Tygertiger · 27/08/2023 13:00

BCCoach · 27/08/2023 12:54

Stock has made the same error that it seems so many commentators have made about the new BC, CTT and UCI policies. It doesn’t just apply to the elite category. It applies to ALL competition from grassroots racing up. It doesn’t matter whether you are racing at WorldTour level or a weekend warrior at your local town centre crit or club 10, the policies apply.

Why is this an error? Are women in grassroots sport not allowed to have single-sex criteria? Does fairness only matter if there’s an Olympic medal at stake?

LulooLemon · 27/08/2023 13:20

Well done Kathleen

MrsOvertonsWindow · 27/08/2023 13:21

BCCoach · 27/08/2023 12:54

Stock has made the same error that it seems so many commentators have made about the new BC, CTT and UCI policies. It doesn’t just apply to the elite category. It applies to ALL competition from grassroots racing up. It doesn’t matter whether you are racing at WorldTour level or a weekend warrior at your local town centre crit or club 10, the policies apply.

That's positive - but this isn't universal is it? A number of sports have changed their policies to protect elite sport but "ordinary" women and girls are still faced with men in their competitions & changing rooms aren't they?

And I was horrified to read that Lauren Jeska mentioned above still holds the women's Parkrun title :
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12118371/Fury-Parkrun-womens-record-revealed-held-transgender-attempted-murderer.html

Parkrun women's record is held by transgender attempted murderer

Lauren Jeska was jailed in 2017 when a dispute with a UK Athletics official over her eligibility to compete as a female athlete when she was born male turned violent

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12118371/Fury-Parkrun-womens-record-revealed-held-transgender-attempted-murderer.html

OP posts:
7Worfs · 27/08/2023 13:35

But elite athletes don’t just materialise into the top categories - they come through the grassroots.
Why would girls put all that effort and sacrifices if they have to constantly put up and accommodate, and get passed over, by boys in dresses?

borntobequiet · 27/08/2023 14:43

I remember reading an article a few years ago about why the Uk cycling team (men’s presumably) were doing so well in competitions.

It might have been this, or a rehash of it. I heard it on the radio.

https://jamesclear.com/marginal-gains

This Coach Improved Every Tiny Thing by 1 Percent and Here’s What Happened

Discover the power of small wins and slow gains.

https://jamesclear.com/marginal-gains

TheSandgroper · 27/08/2023 15:14

@Isheabastard EB has everything you say but what he also has, which you and I don’t, is a pelvis that is designed to transfer power from A to B. That cannot ever be changed.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 27/08/2023 16:44

Thanks OP. Spot on!

Thelonelygiraffe · 27/08/2023 16:51

Brilliant article!

WallaceinAnderland · 27/08/2023 16:57

Contrary to what Vogue apparently thinks, allowing males to compete in women’s sport doesn’t “diversify” it, just as letting cheetahs run in men’s sprint races wouldn’t diversify male sport.

Very clever play on words there.

sashagabadon · 27/08/2023 16:57

i read Kathleen stock quite a lot in unherd and she is a fantastic writer, very funny with a great turn of phrase.
we’d all never have discovered her writing talents at all if trans activists were reasonable fair open minded people so we really do have to thank them!

DerekFaker · 27/08/2023 16:58

Thanks for the share, OP. Great stuff!

7Worfs · 27/08/2023 18:16

borntobequiet · 27/08/2023 14:43

I remember reading an article a few years ago about why the Uk cycling team (men’s presumably) were doing so well in competitions.

It might have been this, or a rehash of it. I heard it on the radio.

https://jamesclear.com/marginal-gains

Yep, aggregation of marginal gains. It’s so powerful, that example is taught in business courses now, and it’s largely the reason Team GB dominated the 2012 Olympics.

BCCoach · 27/08/2023 18:27

RealityFan · 27/08/2023 12:59

That's very good to hear. So, no more men in women's Parkrun?

Parkrun is….running. It has nothing to do with BC, CTT or UCI which are all cycling governing bodies.

BCCoach · 27/08/2023 18:36

Tygertiger · 27/08/2023 13:00

Why is this an error? Are women in grassroots sport not allowed to have single-sex criteria? Does fairness only matter if there’s an Olympic medal at stake?

Her error is that she states, or at least implies, that the policy applies only to elite category races. Many commentators seem to be labouring under the same misapprehension due to early inaccurate reporting of the policy change.

RealityFan · 27/08/2023 18:41

BCCoach · 27/08/2023 18:36

Her error is that she states, or at least implies, that the policy applies only to elite category races. Many commentators seem to be labouring under the same misapprehension due to early inaccurate reporting of the policy change.

So, the changes to swimming, cycling, rugby, running...they all apply from the grass roots and up?

Girls and women can demand males stay out of their parkruns etc?

Of course, males will still sidle in at low level, who's gonna confront them? I can't imagine park organisers want to do a "gender count".

And of course, decades of unfettered access won't disappear without a fight.

BCCoach · 27/08/2023 18:59

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BCCoach · 27/08/2023 20:10

Sorry @RealityFan i posted a detailed response but must have used a banned word. In summary:
cycling: grassroots
athletics: grassroots
swimming: grassroots
triathlon: grassroots
Time trialling: grassroots
rugby: England RU have derogated from WR policy and allow transwomen to play in women’s teams at amateur level. Don’t know about the other home nations
gymnastics: no policy at all but unsurprising as it’s a car crash of a sport from the governance and safeguarding perspective

There are lots of unaffiliated events in running and cycling in particular. Parkrun is an obvious example in the running world but also lots of ultras. In cycling most MTB, gravel and fixed gear races are unaffiliated. Many unaffiliated events also don’t bother with such mundanities as doping control so already attract a lot of people who wouldn’t make it in more regulated competitive sports.

Inamuddle36 · 27/08/2023 20:44

I think KS made excellent points and am glad her comment features prominently in the Sunday Times. However, I wishes he had not focussed so much on male anatomy (not sure if MN allows me to write the word??). It is not the presence of “male anatomy” that is problematic but rather the impact of male puberty. A transwoman who has had “male anatomy” surgically removed, still has the benefit of having gone through male puberty and therefore should not compete in female sport.

Onyerbikethen · 27/08/2023 20:45

British Cycling is still allowing males to take part in its non-competitive and grassroots Breeze programme, advertised as 'Women only bike rides...fun, free bike rides for women of all abilities across the UK.'

In fact, those 'women' can, and do, include those of the male sex because of British Cycling's dictats, despite there being an alternative called Guided Rides which is advertised as open to both sexes.

And Breeze Champions, who are overwhelmingly females, aren't allowed to turn away or question males who turn up for a Breeze ride as a self declared female. ☹️

As you can imagine, many of these volunteer Breeze Champions are pretty pissed off about the policy, and their objections are consistently shut down by British Cycling. Here is the policy:

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20230526-about-bc-static-Update--Transgender-and-Non-Binary-Participation-policies-0

Update: Transgender and Non-Binary Participation policies

In April 2022, we suspended our Transgender and Non-Binary Participation Policy so that we could conduct a full review of the available medical science and carry out a targeted consultation with our communities.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20230526-about-bc-static-Update--Transgender-and-Non-Binary-Participation-policies-0