Is This Just Me?

[Catiette]

So, for context, I've a range of concerns about mandated pronoun use (eg. children's health & well-being in the light of the Cass Review's findings; the impact on individuals with learning difficulties or who are neuro-divergent; the ethics of compelled speech especially in eg. a courtroom or DV context; women's rights...)

However, I also recognise this is a complex issue & am sympathetic to aspects of it. For example, I support using opposite sex pronouns in a legitimately diagnosed case of gender dysphoria, & am beginning to think that, where a child perceives themselves as, let's say, "gender-confused" for whatever reason (& a key issue with pronouns is, of course, how many reasons there may be for this in the current climate), using "they/them" may be a way of alleviating their distress as they work it through while also mitigating the Cass-identified risks of using opposite sex pronouns in this context.

Anyway, in advance of the start of the new school year, a place near me has shared the leaflet linked below with its staff, and I've been asked my thoughts about it as someone who reads fairly widely on all this.

I found pages 1 through 5 pretty much as expected - some parts concerning, many frustrating in the simplistic & didactic treatment of a hugely complex issue, but overall, "so far, so familiar". Then I read the penultimate page: "10 Things You’re Actually Saying When You Deliberately Misgender or Ignore Someone’s Pronouns". Before sharing my own views on this in more detail, I wondered what others think. Link below, content of relevant page pasted below that.

https://www.kogarahcommunity.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/All-about-Pronouns.pdf

"10 Things You’re Actually Saying When You Deliberately Misgender or Ignore Someone’s Pronouns

1. I know you better than you know yourself
2. I would rather hurt you repeatedly than change the way I speak about you
3. Your sense of safety is not important to me
4. Your identity isn’t real and shouldn’t be acknowledged
5. I want to teach everyone around me to disrespect you
6. Offending you is fine if it makes me feel more comfortable
7. I can hear you talking, but I’m not really listening
8. Being who you truly are is an inconvenience to me
9. I would prefer it if you stopped being honest with me
10. I am not an ally, a friend, or someone you can trust"

Edited simply for the thrill of using the edit button (although I have noticed a typo since!)

The main issue is the concept of "legitimately diagnosed gender dysphoria." The diagnostic process and affirmative care model basically make this elusive.

I also don't agree with putting words in the mouths of people who probably just reacted to the subconscious signifiers their brain interpreted as "male" or "female" and I think far too much overthinking goes on with all this, that centres the "misgendered" person as fundamentally "wronged" when they should just get over the fact that they obviously still look like a man/woman and always will and therefore not everyone will play a bit part in their control drama not to deliberately offend them but because most people can't bring themselves to care about whether the person they're talking to is he/her/xim/shir/a sealion.

Edited. Not sure how that link got in there.

Sounds absolutely like emotional blackmail.
The world is a harsh place and the sooner these pampered children are told 'no, it's ridiculous no one can change sex. Just develop your personality.'
The sooner will they develop resiliency and be able to face life.
Honestly a good dose of Stoic philosophy would do them good!

Personally feel that indulging such fantasies and illusions is not conducive to good mental health. The role of a therapist/good friend is not to mirror such illusions, and affirm them, but to reflect those illusions back to the recipient.

The world does not revolve around us as individuals and our personal self perception. It is not 'kind' to go along with delusions, whatever they are. We can listen, and hold that space - but affirmation is something else.

Also, we should not be expecting people to go along with an ideology or a set oif belifes that they know fundamentally not to be true.

Honestly people are "misgendered" all the time it's not personal as a small child my dd could be dressed head to toe in pink and still be called he by the lady down the road it never hurt her we just corrected and moved on

Honestly, @SisterMichaelsHabit, I share some of those concerns - esp. your first paragraph. I probably should have left out my waffly attempt at outlining my own thoughts, and just posted the list, as this is what really interests me here. What did you think of it as an "educational" resource for teachers and, the source site clearly indicates, children or "young people"?

10 things you're actually saying when you write a list titled "When You Deliberately Misgender or Ignore Someone’s Pronouns"

1. I know you better than you know yourself
2. I would rather hurt you repeatedly than change the way I speak about you
3. Your sense of safety is not important to me
4. Your identity isn’t real and shouldn’t be acknowledged
5. I want to teach everyone around me to disrespect you
6. Offending you is fine if it makes me feel more comfortable
7. I can hear you talking, but I’m not really listening
8. Being who you truly are is an inconvenience to me
9. I would prefer it if you stopped being honest with me
10. I am not an ally, a friend, or someone you can trust

I was planning to make an edit based on the original, then realised I didn't need to change a thing. It's 100% projection.

I find that list quite terrifying tbh. I cannot imagine another situation where to disagree with my child would lead to "I am not someone you can trust"!!!

Imagine if your child wanted a tattoo or was anorexic. What about neuro-divergent young people? What if they aren't comfortable being touched by a doctor or optician? Let them be unhealthy or blind by asserting their view of the world and themselves???

What did you think of it as an "educational" resource for teachers and, the source site clearly indicates, children or "young people"?
My second paragraph was my response to the list. I think teachers and young people (and anyone else who needs to hear it) would do well to remember that most people really don't care about this gender woo nonsense and just go with whatever gets them criticised the least for an easy life.

10 Things You’re Actually Saying When You Deliberately Misgender or Ignore Someone’s Pronouns Try To Force Me To Use Pronouns I Perceive As Untruthful

I know you better than you know yourself
I get to choose what you think and say, not you

I would rather hurt you repeatedly than change the way I speak about you
I would rather cause you repeated mental exhaustion, cognitive discomfort, and inability to communicate fluently than accept reality

Your sense of safety is not important to me
Your sense of integrity is not important to me

Your identity isn’t real and shouldn’t be acknowledged
Your beliefs aren't valid and shouldn't be expressed

I want to teach everyone around me to disrespect you
I want to teach everyone around me to harass and subjugate you if you don't pander to my fantasies

Offending you is fine if it makes me feel more comfortable
Trying to restrict your (legal) speech is fine if it makes me feel more comfortable

I can hear you talking, but I’m not really listening
I can hear you talking, but I'm only listening to check for validation

Being who you truly are is an inconvenience to me
Your disability and your resulting difficulty in complying with my demands offends my delicate sensibilities

I would prefer it if you stopped being honest with me
I would prefer if you… wait, that one's the same.

I am not an ally, a friend, or someone you can trust
I am… oops, same again.

Haha, you got there first, and much more succinctly! Mine is particularly from my own perspective, as someone whose ASD-related cognitive differences and communication difficulties make complying with the pronoun demands particularly tricky (even if I wanted to).

Absolutely, @NecessaryScene. I'll add that, like @ZeldaFighter, I actually found the list actively disturbing - it hit me very hard it a way the previous pages just outlining the "philosophy" of pronoun use, didn't, & I found myself worrying about it for quite a while after reading. Its tone, its content - I'm reassured by Zelda using the word "terrifying".

I don't think I'd make such bald references as "I would rather hurt you repeatedly" in a leaflet seeking to educate them about stranger danger, for example, as even in this context, I'd be wary of encouraging actual fear or paranoia. To use language like this in a leaflet addressing psychologically distressed children, in reference to a form of (third person) address that's cognitively challenging and politically contested, rather blew my mind...

(Editing's a bit addictive for a pedant!)

If this was changed to another person with mental health problems demanding to be called your majesty because they identify as a king or queen, would we all be castigated for not affirming their dillusion?

It pisses me off, that some people want all kinds of special treatment and exemptions and exceptions and kid-glove handling, self-diagnose with half a dozen mental illnesses and neurodevelopmental disorders and list them in their profile, join support groups or organisations for things they've decided they have, demand extra help and consideration for those on top of all their special identity demands, act like they're so very fucking superior to everybody else at understanding disability and difference and accepting people for Who They Truly Are, but won't for a fraction of a second have the fucking humility to consider that their often frivolous and ever-changing demands might not be manageable for everybody.

Well number 4 is very true. Identity isn't real and made up nonsense shouldn't be acknowledged.

For example I am straight - I don't identify as straight, I just am.
My friend doesn't identify as a lesbian, she just is.
2 sexes, multiple personalities and gender is bollocks.

Precisely.

I agree with PPs. It's emotional blackmail bollocks and anyone who tried those arguments on me is not emotionally mature enough to even discuss this with and I'd not bother trying.

Also, an alternative set of messages for the child adopting opposite-sex pronouns could easily be the below. Far less pithy, admittedly, but that's part of the problem, isn't it - the facile soundbites in the list belie a problematic lack of careful thought about highly complex issues...

1. I know you better than you know yourself

I've read widely about the issues you're facing, including research you're unable to access, and, as an intelligent and empathetic adult, do have a deeper understanding of the risks associated with the choices you're making.

2. I would rather hurt you repeatedly than change the way I speak about you

I would rather risk social ostracisation to protect you than unquestioningly adopt opposite sex pronouns as the easy way out.

3. Your sense of safety is not important to me

Your perceived sense of safety as a young person can sometimes be at odds with the realities of what is, & isn't safe. As an educator, I have a responsibility to use my knowledge & experience to help you make increasingly accurate judgements about these complex issues.

4. Your identity isn’t real and shouldn’t be acknowledged

Your identity is complex & continually evolving, & I want to support you in establishing it through your challenging formative years by opening avenues that long-term pronoun use may risk closing off.

5. I want to teach everyone around me to disrespect you

I care deeply about you & your well-being, & want to model this to others.

6. Offending you is fine if it makes me feel more comfortable

This is, emphatically, not about my comfort, or your offence, but larger-scale & higher-stake issues for you, & society.

7. I can hear you talking, but I’m not really listening

I've listened more carefully, read more thoroughly & thought more exhaustively about this issue than many of those unquestioningly adopting the pronouns you prefer.

8. Being who you truly are is an inconvenience to me

See 2), 4), 6)!

9. I would prefer it if you stopped being honest with me

Please do continue to be honest with me, & likewise allow me to be honest with you: enforcing dishonesty on either side is not a foundation for a secure relationship of any kind.

10. I am not an ally, a friend, or someone you can trust

"Ally" is an emotionally manipulative word with in-built connotations of conflict, "friend" is similarly inappropriate in an educational context, and to suggest that the language someone uses is straightforwardly indicative of how "trustworthy" they are is a naive & dangerous message (cf. the David Tennant "You're safe with me" rainbow badges). Unlike the writer of this concerning 1-10 list, I'm reluctant to use language I feel could be damaging to you, whether it's words like these, or pronouns.

My issue with enforcing preferred pronouns and 'affirmation only' when it comes to children is that previous studies have shown that children who are confused about their gender mostly desist when they reach puberty, so long as they are not put on a path to hormones and surgery.

I wonder how much pressure is being applied to these children to maintain this identity by the fact that all their teachers, friends, parents etc. are now using their new name and pronoun. I think in some ways it makes it harder for them to turn around to say 'actually, I don't feel like this anymore' as other people are invested and they may feel embarrassed.

Well number 4 is very true. Identity isn't real and made up nonsense shouldn't be acknowledged.

I initially thought I'd be forced to edit that, then I realised I could just read it as identity in the standard sense - referring to someone as an individual, rather than in the woke sense as some sort of caste, or avatar for something.

The whole list is kind of like that - a basic failure of mind, failing to recognise that you're not the only Real Person thinking Deep Thoughts and having Feelings. Everyone has an identity - as an individual. We're not your supporting cast.

Another list. This, to me, is what it's saying. Not even subliminally, really.

You're unsafe.
You're not valued.
You're misunderstood.
You're not real.
You're an inconvenience.
You should be ignored.
People are untrustworthy.
People are dishonest.

I can't imagine the anxiety that messages like this could induce in a child taking the list entirely at face value. It would be bad enough in any other warning about the unfortunate realities of the world (after all, a fair amount of the above is, regrettably, true!)...

...But to communicate this in full knowledge of the high probability of the reader being misgendered on a regular basis for entirely innocent reasons nothing to do with the above (genuine ignorance of these issues, the inherent challenges of "correct pronoun" use, political dissent, autonomy)?!

It does feel to me like a kind of exploitation of the young reader - a deliberate sacrifice of their well-being to "the greater good", whereby the writer actively encourages (instead of seeking to mitigate) real discomfort, distress and anger, in order to enlist another (wounded) foot-soldier in a movement for more widespread social change.

Spot on!

Another re-write (as you can tell, the list really bugged me, & this is a chance to think through why!)

Imagining I'm entirely on-board with the whole thing, but that I have the child's best interests at heart (as opposed to enlisting them to enforce social change), what would be wrong with something like the following, in place of the published "top-ten"?!:

"If someone repeatedly misgenders you, this can be deeply upsetting, and feel like an attack on the heart of who you are. However, it may help to remember that it's highly likely that this person still respects and cares about you. Try to notice other aspects of the ways in which they interact with you: do they speak to you respectfully otherwise? do they try to help you in other ways?

As far as their pronoun use goes, remember that the fact that they're not using your pronouns mostly says more about them, and their difficulties, than it does about you, or their relationship with or views of you. They may have additional needs of their own that make using correct pronouns difficult (for example, autism). Alternatively, they may be struggling to adapt to these rapid changes in our language. They will learn, over time!

In the meantime, if you find the situation very distressing, then perhaps you could speak to them about your feelings, or share your concerns with another trusted adult."

That is not an educational resource, it's attempting to brainwash children into accepting a particular belief that is not based on science. I object to the whole leaflet and think it should be reframed in terms of "some people believe" .

However to concentrate on the last, disgusting, list designed to introduce fear

If someone does not use your requested pronouns this may be because they have forgotten or because they disagree with the concept of gender identity. Politely remind them.

Other people do not have to believe in your gender identity and you should not attempt to force your belief on them. This may cause them distress.

Some people will try to tell you that this makes you unsafe - it doesnt. People can disagree without meaning you any harm.

If you are confident in your gender identity you do not need it to be affirmed by other people.

For example, I support using opposite sex pronouns in a legitimately diagnosed case of gender dysphoria

And would you support affirming that the person is fat in a legitimately diagnosed case of anorexia? Or that a person's left leg is hideous in a legitimately diagnosed case of body dysphoria?

There are two types of people who expect others to use incorrect pronouns in reference to them: confused people and coercive people. Using sex-accurate pronouns to refer to a person says absolutely nothing about them. It is nothing to do with them. All it does is state your perceptions.