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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What if we rethought gender?

99 replies

bonfireoftheverities · 25/08/2023 19:25

Only 7 minutes long, but I have yet to make it through. Perhaps you're made of stronger stuff.

"How about we challenge the idea that sex is about biology and biology is just fact."

What if we rethought gender?

What if we rethought gender? What if we started now? A film by Luke Naylor-Perrott, based on the book by Louie Läuger. More information here: https://www.ten...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXDFFiJycb8

OP posts:
SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 25/08/2023 19:28

Without actually watching this, I suspect it is because that sort of compromise would not be sufficient for the gender ideologues. Nothing other than complete capitulation is acceptable. Any man can say he is a woman and hey presto, he is one. Biological women cannot have anything just for us - sports, single sex spaces, sports, intimate care from a biological woman.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/08/2023 19:57

I'm not seeing any compromise or groundbreaking insight mooted about 2 mins in, it's just the typical boring genderist talking points, mixed with an acknowledgment that gender is meaningless, but entirely focussed on individualistic navel gazing about your "identity".

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/08/2023 19:58

I actually got about 5 minutes in while writing my post, it didn't get any better.

StripeySuperNova · 25/08/2023 20:03

It is utter insanity. Like, jaw-on-the-floor madness, watching that. And oddly fascinating. How can they hold all that conflict in their minds at the same time and present it with such a smile? It's truly awesome.

felisha54 · 25/08/2023 20:06

I got 30 seconds in and couldn't watch anymore. I think their confusion is they're using the terms boy and girl instead of the biological terms of male and female.

AvengedQuince · 25/08/2023 20:07

'Children encouraged to play with toy building blocks develop different parts if their brain to children encouraged to play with dolls'. What does that have to do with sex or 'gender'? Construction toys like lego, and dolls or figurines are for children, not boys or girls.

AvengedQuince · 25/08/2023 20:11

Isn't most of this just an argument against sex based stereotypes? We did this in the 80s didn't we?

Theunamedcat · 25/08/2023 20:12

Toys are for children regardless of the sex of the child I find it wrong to restrict a child's play based upon there sex by sons have played with dolls and trains and cars they even had a dolls house (that hulk lived in) my dd had cars dolls a train set why wouldn't I? Toys are for children

Boiledbeetle · 25/08/2023 20:12

7 minutes and of course there's a drag queen.

What if we rethought gender?
AvengedQuince · 25/08/2023 20:20

Theunamedcat · 25/08/2023 20:12

Toys are for children regardless of the sex of the child I find it wrong to restrict a child's play based upon there sex by sons have played with dolls and trains and cars they even had a dolls house (that hulk lived in) my dd had cars dolls a train set why wouldn't I? Toys are for children

Exactly. Back in the 80s I played with lego as a girl. In the 90s I had meccano, short hair, wore 'boys' clothing if I liked it. Why are we still talking about this? Toys are for children. Clothes are for children. Different hairstyles are for children. None of this changes the fact that there are boys and girls.

Thingybob · 25/08/2023 20:40

Well I got to the end but don't have a clue what gender identity any of them have. I did however easily clock what sex they all were

ApocalipstickNow · 25/08/2023 20:49

Boiledbeetle · 25/08/2023 20:12

7 minutes and of course there's a drag queen.

That is a lion.

PurpleBugz · 25/08/2023 20:51

It really does make some good arguments against gender stereotypes. But it fails to separate gender from sex.

It also says we all have a gender so i would categorise this as the sort of film clip they play at my church study groups- it's a religious teaching.

Of course they force march with race and disability.

But it's all navel gazing - our individual genders are beautiful powerful blah blah. It makes the case that gender nonconformity is all there lovely adjectives but does so in a way that's pushing the acceptance and be kind message. I am fully on board accepting someone's gender identity and their right to express it in the same way I think nothing of a woman in a hijab/turban/wearing a cross expressing/following their religion. The difference is accepting things like religions and disability or race isn't taking away mine and my children's rights.

StripeySuperNova · 25/08/2023 20:52

Transcript:

What if we rethought gender? What if we were curious, not angry, about gender? Curious about why social expectations are the way they are today, why certain people don’t fit into those expectations, and how we can all learn to grow. Not angry that things have changed in the last few years, that some people ask for your pronouns, or that there may be terms or labels you don’t know.

How about we challenge the idea that “sex is about biology and biology is just fact”? Because biological sex is actually as socially constructed as anything we do. Boy and girl are categories assigned at birth based on genital appearance. Sure, bodies are different, but sorting everyone into two sharply different boy/girl boxes based on genitals: that’s on us! There could be 10 categories based on our jobs, not our genitals, or seven categories based on hormone levels. And while we’re at it, could we reconsider binary gender at birth and write intersex people back into the story? Acknowledging that some people don’t fit into our neat categories: some people have a vulva but internal testicles, some people have a penis and XX chromosomes, some have a vagina and breasts but more testosterone than oestrogen. Did you know that there’s a similar number of intersex people as redheaded people? That’s 1-2% of the population! But did you also know that there are thousands of so-called “gender normalising surgeries” that happen each year, usually not necessary for the health of the child and sometimes leading to physical and psychological pain? International courts have condemned these surgeries, so why are we holding on to assigning a gender binary at birth?

What if we rethought sorting kids into blue and pink boxes full of pirates and princesses, anger and empathy, beer and wine, lust and romance, football and housework, right from birth. Because this actually impacts their development. Kids who are encouraged to play with toy building blocks develop different parts of their brains than children encouraged to play with dolls.

What if we recognised that there’s nothing natural about the gender roles our society has for men and women. Otherwise, how do we explain countless past and present examples showing our binary as just one of many options? Surely, if gender binaries were actually tied to biology, they would have remained the same throughout human history and continue to be identical all over the world?

What would society look like if definitions of masculinity and femininity were flexible and liberating? If things like rocking nail polish and wearing sexy lingerie and lifting weights and being romantic (or not romantic) and crying and parenting and leading were free from stigma and open to everybody? What could happen if we recognise that non-binary and gender-fluid and intersex and agender are terms designed to unlock cages not reinforce them? That those labels aren’t threatening anyone else’s identity or demanding anything: they’re an invitation for all of us to self-define and forge our own paths, to be free.

Whether we’ve meant to or not, we’ve all internalised the gender binary. We often judge how intelligent a person is, how empathetic they are, how much money they earn, who or how they should love, before we’ve even got to know them, just based on their gender. And that sucks. Let’s fix it.

What if we rethought gender on an individual level? No gender identity is less “natural” or “real” than any other. What if we recognise that sometimes people’s gender identities align with the gender they were assigned at birth and sometimes people’s gender identities don’t. Both are cool! But crucially, everyone has a gender identity, and that includes “man” and “woman”. Could we, as a society, be mindful that folk whose gender matches their sex assigned at birth are the norm in education, medicine, and media? That they don’t need to come out or get medical statements or constantly have to convince strangers that their identities are real? What have we understood that things are even harder for people of colour, disabled people, people who live in poverty? People who have so often been on the front lines in challenging and redefining expectations, but have so often been overlooked in the narrative and left to struggle alone? What if we worked towards fixing these struggles together? And how about we listened - properly listened - to those around us? Made an empathetic space so our friends and co-workers or children can talk to us about their identity: let them know that they’ll receive love and support. What if we fought for a world in which gender can be joyous and beautiful and hopeful and powerful and free and yours? What if we rethought gender? What if we started now?

PurpleBugz · 25/08/2023 20:57

I dunno maybe it's too offensive to say and I don't mean to be offensive but I hear arguments like this video a lot and agree with so much of it but I can see the flaws. I often thing so many of these people haven't got critical thinking abilities or are just a bit stupid yet they grow at to do right by people. They see how harmful gender stereotypes are they see sex inequality and they go down the TRA route because they just shout their message louder than the silenced GC.

I'm autistic and parent to autistic kids so feel maybe I can get away with saying this is why those with social emotional and communication difficulties are falling into this movement in such numbers. They don't see the sinister motives of the few they just see people who they can identify with through emotional pain and not fitting in and don't engage critical thinking. I think had a I watched that video as a teen feeling alien and different and having already had years of misogyny experiences I could easily have been TRA but lucky for me I'm older when I became aware of the topic and having got children I can see the screaming safeguarding holes in the movement

morningtoncrescent62 · 25/08/2023 21:21

I'm less than a minute in.

"What if we were curious, not angry, about gender?"

Well I'm both. I'm curious about why the set of stereotypical roles and expectations known as 'gender' which hold women's subordination in place are still a thing, and I'm angry as hell about that. I'm curious about why a pornified version of femininity is running rampant among young people, and beyond angry at the way young women and girls, especially those from disadvantaged backgrounds, are exploited by it.

"How about we challenge the idea that sex is about 'biology' and biology is just 'fact'?"
"Because biological sex is as socially constructed as anything we do."

Sorry, no, it's not. OK, so the words we use to discuss biological sex are human inventions, but biological sex exists whatever we choose to name it. We're mammals, and mammalian species come in two sexes. That's fact.

I can't be bothered to keep on watching.

HipTightOnions · 25/08/2023 21:28

There could be 10 categories based on our jobs, not our genitals

Well yes, but what have our jobs got to do with how babies are made?

duc748 · 25/08/2023 21:32

felisha54 · 25/08/2023 20:06

I got 30 seconds in and couldn't watch anymore. I think their confusion is they're using the terms boy and girl instead of the biological terms of male and female.

I rather think it's another of their attempts to undermine English grammar (as per the definition of woman), by seeking to change 'boy' and 'girl' from nouns to adjectives. "See, they're just a mode, really".

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/08/2023 22:46

FTFY:

What if we forgot about gender? What if we were totally agnostic about gender? Reject gender and there's no need to question why certain people don’t fit into gendered expectations, and we can all learn to grow. Be angry that our acceptance of people's differences have been so reduced in the last few years, that some people think your identity depends on your pronouns, or that there may be terms or labels for you that you don’t get a say in.

How about we challenge the idea that “sex is less significant than gender identity and gender identity is just fact”? Because gender is actually as socially constructed as anything we do. Boy and girl are just the human versions of the same two sexes that almost all living things have. Sure, bodies are different, but sorting everyone into two sharply different boy/girl boxes based on personality: that’s on us! There could be 10 categories based on our jobs, not outmoded sexist ideas, or seven categories based on heights. And while we’re at it, could we reconsider the idea that people with DSDs have anything to do with gender? Acknowledging that some people don’t fit into our neat categories: some people have a vulva but internal testicles, some people have a penis and XX chromosomes, some have a vagina and breasts but more testosterone than oestrogen. Did you know that some ignorant people would label a woman with PCOS as intersex, and based on that and similar ignorant misunderstandings claim there’s a similar number of people with as redheaded people? That’s 1-2% of the population being told a minor difference in their hormones or genitalia makes then not actually male or feamle! But did you also know that there are thousands of so-called “gender normalising surgeries” that happen each year, usually not necessary for the health of the child and sometimes leading to physical and psychological pain? International courts have condemned these surgeries, so why are we telling people who feel confused about their gender later in life that surgeries like these are a good and healing thing?

What if we forgot about sorting kids into blue and pink boxes full of pirates and princesses, anger and empathy, beer and wine, lust and romance, football and housework, right from birth. Because this actually impacts their development. Kids who are encouraged to play with toy building blocks develop different parts of their brains than children encouraged to play with dolls.

What if we recognised that there’s nothing natural about the gender roles our society has for men and women. Otherwise, how do we explain countless past and present examples showing our binary as just one of many options? Surely, if gender was real, it would have remained the same throughout human history and continue to be identical all over the world?

What would society look like if definitions of masculinity and femininity were flexible and liberating? If things like rocking nail polish and wearing sexy lingerie and lifting weights and being romantic (or not romantic) and crying and parenting and leading were free from stigma and open to everybody? What could happen if we recognise that non-binary and gender-fluid and intersex and agender are ways that people are trying to express their own knowledge of who they are into an ideology that wants everyone to pick their label, and told them they could just throw the labels away altogether, and unlock cages not reinforce them? That those labels aren’t necessary for anyone’s identity and instead of wasting our energy demanding others respect them, just realise we are free to self-define and forge our own paths, to throw away gender labels and be free.

Whether we’ve meant to or not, we’ve all internalised the gender binary. We often judge how intelligent a person is, how empathetic they are, how much money they earn, who or how they should love, before we’ve even got to know them, just based on their gender. And that sucks. Let’s fix it.

What if we we forgot about gender on an individual level? No gender identity is more “natural” or “real” than any other. What if we recognise that no-one's gender identity aligns with the gender they were assigned at birth because no one is assigned a gender at birth, and no-one's gender identity aligns or unaligns with their sex either, because your sex doesn't have a gender. People are cool! But crucially, noone has a gender identity, and that includes “man” and “woman”. Could we, as a society, be mindful that folk whose gender doesn't match their sex at birth are the norm in education, medicine, and media because there is no such thing as a gender that matches anyone's sex? That noone should feel they need to come out or get medical statements or constantly have to convince strangers that their identities are real? What have we understood that things are hard for people of colour, disabled people, female people, people who live in poverty? People who have so often been on the front lines in challenging and redefining expectations, but have so often been overlooked in the narrative and left to struggle alone? What if we worked towards fixing these struggles together instead of obsessing over whether people we don't know have correctly recognised gender labels we chose to assign to ourselves? And how about we listened - properly listened - to those around us? Made an empathetic space so our friends and co-workers or children can talk to us about who they truly are: let them know that they’ll receive love and support. What if we fought for a world in which people can be joyous and beautiful and hopeful and powerful and free and without having to pick a label to explain themselves? What if we forgot about gender? What if we started now?

(thank you @StripeySuperNova for the transcript)

Boiledbeetle · 25/08/2023 23:26
Clap Applause GIF by ehcat

@StripeySuperNova Stirling work!

@FlirtsWithRhinos equally sterling edit!

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 25/08/2023 23:31

As @FlirtsWithRhinos' edit shows, they're so close to getting it. With just a little more critical thinking and engaging with reality they could work it out.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/08/2023 01:47

Brilliant @FlirtsWithRhinos and thank you @StripeySuperNova for the transcript, don't think I missed a great deal by not watching to the end

OhcantthInkofaname · 26/08/2023 03:46

And what if we understand that there are male bodies and females bodies.

HagoftheNorth · 26/08/2023 07:27

I remain massively curious about ‘gender’ - definition of a woman (in gender terms) anyone? Now removing the stereotypes?

My main curiosity though, remain how this ideology has generated such traction when it is so clearly bollocks

BonfireLady · 26/08/2023 08:19

Great editing @FlirtsWithRhinos

Yep, this really does show how close the different positions are when it comes to challenging the sex-based expectations that are placed on us from birth. There are many that we uphold within our own cultures every day without even realising it. For example when my first child was born I got lots of pink stuff and girly toys as gifts for her. As someone who doesn't believe in gender identity, I don't believe that sex is "assigned at birth". However, I do believe that there are a whole load of sex-based expectations placed on everyone right from the start. Sadly, as women we seem to have to fight a whole lot more to break out of these when we don't want to adhere to them.

For me (as an atheist) it's similar to how closely I find myself agreeing with many of the teachings in the bible. For example, the 10 commandments make sense to me as ways to be a decent person. I don't follow them as instructions or because I would be fearful of God's wrath if I didn't. I just happen to agree that they seem like a good way for people to live within a society. Equally, I disagree with much of what the Bible says, including some of the "instructions" on how to live.

If it's not recognised as a belief, that's where the harm comes in. Beliefs can be accommodated in our existing laws and ways of living as long as they are understood to be just that. Just as we're not mandating that everyone has to go to church on a Sunday, we shouldn't be mandating that transwomen belong in women's spaces and sports. Also we shouldn't be encouraging adolescents who are struggling with the huge emotional upheaval of puberty (for girls, much of this is linked to a realisation about what society expects because of their sex, particularly when it comes to how men view them sexually) to think about gender identity as a way to make sense of it.

People can believe in gender identity should they wish to. Equally, nobody can compel anyone to do so. What's more important IMO is to call out the harms that this belief brings with it (e.g. sterilisation of children, providing an opportunity window for predators to access children/women under the banner of inclusion) and to make sure that the way it's accommodated in society doesn't impact anyone else's boundaries.