Have we as a society lost sight of the value of a functioning, undamaged, whole body?

[RainWithSunnySpells]

I was reading the womb transplant thread in AIBU the other day and a couple of the replies made me wonder the above.

Maybe there has been a building effect over the years with the increasing normality of plastic surgery.

Don't like something about your body? Go under the knife, take hormones etc.

Not using an organ? How about donating it?

I am aware that I have phrased this slightly flippantly, but does anyone else agree with my musings?

If 'yes' what can we do about it? Or is this a future that it is too late to back away from?

I agree with you. And there's a tendency to see human body parts as being like Lego, easily swapped around. Major surgery is still risky and there's always the risk of lasting ill effects - scarring, numbness, loss of function, pain etc.
Surgery should never be taken lightly.

It's all about the money.

Turning us into a collection of interchangeable, replaceable body parts.

Interesting post! I think that people have got used to the idea that a lot of things can now be 'fixed' if they're unhappy with an aspect of their appearance or some part of their body and they're willing to do it and pay if necessary.

Some fixes have been around for a while now - braces for wonky teeth, for instance - while others like Botox, fillers, teeth whitening, cellulite treatments, lasers to improve skin appearance and texture, etc, were only really available to wealthy people or celebs, but there are aesthetic clinics everywhere now so those treatments are available to ordinary folk. And what is not to like about being able to fix some part of your body that you're self-conscious about?

What can we do? I don't know. The genie is out of the bottle and I don't think it's going back in.

Maybe that's the problem? Perhaps we should make better body narratives. We should be clear we're more like flat pack furniture, good luck dissembling and reassembling that and hoping to retain functionality.

Yes I thought along the same lines on the same thread. A hysterectomy at 40 (8 hour surgery in this instance) with all the potential side effects casually unmentioned. I know someone whose sister (aged 30, with small kids) died during routine surgery for something fairly minor.

I briefly considered a boob job in my mid 20s, but was put off mainly by the sight of the implants themselves before they go in, and by the fact they have to be replaced at some point.

I would add to that, for some it is all linked to Transhumanism - the idea that we can move beyond our physical bodies with the help of technology.

I find it a bit terrifying and dystopian, but plenty of rich people are pushing this crap.

https://jbilek.substack.com/p/martine-rothblatt-a-founding-father

It took me a long time to understand a csection was major surgery.
I don't think it's the value of a whole body which has been lost.
I think it is the meaning of major surgery.
Recovery times, complications are just... participation trophies.

I boggled, too at the idea of a voluntary, sudden, surgical early menopause, given how horrible my own natural perimenopause is. Nobody even mentioned anything about the donor’s possible resulting health problems in the article I read.

The whole thing makes me very uneasy, and I say that as someone who struggled with infertility for years, and has no children.

I worry a lot for young women in particular about the pressures to have the perfect body, the perfect life, the perfect family - much of it driven by the unrealistic depictions on social media. We need a campaign to celebrate being who you are, not in a flag waving way, but being clear through depictions in the media, reporting and so on that all bodies are perfect because they are the ones we live in and which sustain us, and all lives are good and valuable because they are the only ones we get, and all families are great whether they have partners, children or pets in them or none.

Each of us is enough, just as we are. But how the hell do we row back from where we are to that, more healthy, position?

Yes this!

Yes. I think there's a steady progression from a little nose job towards full-on transhumanism. Sci-fi already takes it for granted that consciousness will be amenable to 'uploading' in the near future, and bodies completely altered by human science rather than alien infection. The usual Young Person response to anyone complaining about their appearance is 'get it fixed'. I suspect there's less tolerance for physical differences and imperfections.

I find it really interesting! Scientific advances in both surgery and genetic medicine mean we can alter people in ways that were unattainable just decades ago, and the pace of change is still increasing.

At the same time, we are learning that humans really aren't just collections of parts: biochemistry's still in infant stages, and we've only just realised that our bacterial & fungal components matter as much as our blood & hormones.

I sometimes think there will have to be some sort of showdown between the 'alteration' strands of medicine and the 'holistic' ones. If you keep having surgery and changing your chemical components, what's the overall effect on things like chemical signalling, and does the brain fully adjust to the changes?

No answers here. There are upcoming developments that I could really have used if they'd been a bit quicker: younger people with my crappy teeth will get gene implants to grow new ones, while mine will be replaced by dentures; I've just taken part in a DNA survey that will identify - and eventually repair - the causes of ME-CFS. I'd probably be vain enough to want the collagen in my skin repaired, though I doubt that'll be available on the NHS!

But ... some of it's going too fast. The 'transgender' farrago will, I am sure, result in a swathe of malpractice claims because it simply doesn't work as advertised. I'm not sure what effect that'll have, if any, on public acceptance of medical interventions.

Great topic! I've missed a handful of replies while typing; will catch up with interest.

Oh yes, and there’s a whole other thing about discrimination and prejudice over disability in this too, which is not really talked about but is vital for real inclusion.

Sorry, this seems to have brought up quite a lot of stuff for me 😁

Yes I think that's a big part of it. Surgery is normalise through media, celebrities and fictional tv/movies.

And aside from the recovery time for the physical trauma, there's also the limits to the results.

Unless you've had surgery or a significant accident yourself, you don't realise that although the body heals, it doesn't go back to its untouched state. Scar tissue will always form and it will never be as soft and flexible as it was. Flesh and bone artificially reshaped will always be a little coarser and lumpier than flesh and bone as it originally grew.

And the more drastic the reshaping, the less natural looking and feeling the result.

It's surely a consequence of advancing medical technologies though? Things are possible now which weren't before.

And who are we to say what's ok and what's not, for the individual?

Me personally...I have Botox, and had a tummy tuck. I certainly have not lost my ability to value a complete human body.

Watching the athletics this week, I always enjoy seeing the range of physiques (male and female) from sprinters, to distance runners to shotputters.

I wish I'd learnt more (anything at all) about physical disabilities when I was young. I coach RDA now and appreciate how much you take for granted in a healthy functioning body.

Yes. I don't really want to go there much, but "All bodies are perfect" - no, they bloody aren't! It's obvious what this statement's meant to convey, but it's disablist and ageist. On the other side, "Your [other-sexed] body should match your inner self" - try telling that to someone with congenital disabilities.

On a more directly related note, two current concepts that REALLY piss me off are authentic self and identity. These words have meanings, which are nothing like what they're currently taken to represent, and neither is a fixed quality of the individual.

@NotMadeOfStone, but what made you feel your tummy was so unacceptable that you would take a calculated medical risk to get rid of it?

Botox, I can more readily understand because humans have never liked having wrinkles - but the question is still valid. I'm finding it harder than expected to be comfortable with my sags and wrinkles. I can't afford 'tweakments', even if I weren't philosophically opposed, but I honestly fear that normal ageing is becoming unacceptable. My elderly aunts never bothered about it. I model my attitude on theirs but am starting to feel like some kind of freak. Remember the bit in Brave New World, where the escapees are utterly horrified by the sight of an old person? I don't want to horrify people!

It makes me laugh that many trans activists make out they are anti-capitalist when Trans (in its current Western manifestation) wouldn’t even exist if it wasn’t for capitalism and big pharma.

I posted on that thread about the health implications of a hysterectomy, having had one, and having problems 6 years later due to the surgery, some of which cannot be fixed. And I say that having had it because I was very, very ill with endometriosis (to the point where visits to A&E to beg for morphine were routine, and I was at risk of losing function in one of my kidneys because I had an endo lesion strangling my left ureter). I've got dense scarring through my bowel and pelvic floor. I constantly get bladder infections, and opening my bowels is so painful that it leaves me sobbing on the toilet at least once a fortnight. Oh, and I still have endo in my rectum, which is pretty much inoperable now due to the scarring. And this is my life for the forseeable. There was no mention at all of the donor or what happens to them afterwards, and this is a major surgery that they 100% do not need. The benefit for them appears to be solely that they have proof that they are a 'good' person.

I've had multiple surgeries now, and encounters with multiple doctors at all levels, and there is most definitely a. a desire to experiment without being open and honest about the fact that they're experimenting b. a willingness to minimise risk. It's barely talked about. Seriously. and c. a process which sees patients very quickly cut off after surgery. In the first few months afterwards, your mood does go up, partly because you're just so relieved that it's over and you didn't die on the table and you are optimistic that the problems you've been left with will resolve themselves in time. But longer term, when reality hits, it can be very different.

It will be interesting to see where these women are healthwise in say 5 or 10 years time, and how they feel about their decision at that point.

I had very low-hanging skin after multiple c-sections which hung down past the tops of my thighs. It was incredibly physically uncomfortable.

Oh, I'm sorry, @NotMadeOfStone, and thanks for your reply. In that case I'm glad it could be corrected!

I think "natural, whole body" vs "medical interference" is a false dichotomy tbh. Virtually none of us have bodies untouched by medical science. Dear old Mother Nature kills half of children before they reach 5.

There isn't a clear dividing line between the functional and the cosmetic either, as @NotMadeOfStone's tummy tuck example shows.

I boggled, too at the idea of a voluntary, sudden, surgical early menopause,

The recipient apparently has her own, functioning ovaries, she just didn't have a uterus, so presumably the donor's ovaries have been left in place.

I was offered surgery to reattach my stomach muscles, but the failure rate was quite high. The risk involved really made me question why I wanted it, and I figured out that it was cosmetic. My body works fine, and I'm good with it. Occasionally people think I'm pregnant but I really don't mind!

It's ok!

To be honest, the side effect has been to kickstart me losing a lot of weight, and I'm much fitter and hotter now 😁 so I'd be lying if I said it was all functional!