Consultation on building regs for public toilets

Imnobody4 · 23/08/2023 17:43

Thanks for posting this. I had thought the consultation had been done but apparently not. Getting a bit fatigued by saying the same thing over and over and over.

IwantToRetire · 23/08/2023 17:50

Imnobody4 · 23/08/2023 17:43

Thanks for posting this. I had thought the consultation had been done but apparently not. Getting a bit fatigued by saying the same thing over and over and over.

This is happening in a number of stages. So the one you filled in before was whether anyone thought toilets should be single sex etc..

This one accepts that there should as well as other provision so is looking at the actual physical set up. Shared space but all toilets in cubicles and so, disabled provision.

I think there are at least 2 other threads on this.

Closing date 8 October 2023

IwantToRetire · 23/08/2023 17:59

Just to say the last thread (which I started so why I thoght there had been one!) was more general discussion https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4871351-gender-neutral-lavatories-are-an-invasion-of-womens-privacy-kemi-badenoch

So good to have a reminder that there is a consultation.

This list of questions seems quite detailed, so worth taking time to complete. Link in OP

JellySaurus · 23/08/2023 18:07

Good start:

This consultation seeks views on toilet provision for men and women in buildings other than dwellings.

"Men and women". Nice and clear.

Freda69 · 23/08/2023 18:10

I have started to fill this in, but it is very long and a lot to read. I have been assaulted more than once in quiet enclosed areas, so I find this whole topic very concerning. I go to a pizza restaurant sometimes which has one wooden door into a toilet with men’s enclosed cubicles on one side and women’s on the other, and I find this quite difficult, because I don’t know who’s behind that door.
Any advice on how to complete this survey quickly?

Original poster

Heavensalongwayaway · 23/08/2023 18:17

Thanks everyone. I thought it was the same as before but if we don’t keep responding then we don’t have a voice. It is tiring though saying the same things. I’m afraid it is long not sure how to address that.

OP posts:

JellySaurus · 23/08/2023 18:21

In the Secretary of State’s view, requirement T1 is met by ensuring all of the following.

a. Separate single-sex toilet facilities are provided for men and women with signs showing whether they are male or female facilities.

Clearly differentiated by sex: male or female facilities provided for men and women. Gender-neutral, because all genders of female people can use the women's toilet as it is a facility for females.

IwantToRetire · 23/08/2023 18:23

It is tiring though saying the same things.

Yes its tiring, but if we hadn't said anything the Tories might have thought we nobody cares about single sex toilets!

And as far as I can tell we can now help shape how that happens - or should happen.

But does make you realise why everything done by Government takes so long!

IwantToRetire · 23/08/2023 18:26

Gender-neutral, because all genders of female people can use the women's toilet as it is a facility for females.

If you read the Badenoch article in the link above it is clear that it is about biology.

And dont forget any provider of toilet even now could invoke the single sex exemption of the EA. So part of the process will be that Government making sure that public buildings understand they are have to proved facilities based on biological sex in additional to gender neutral or single sex.

Tinysoxx · 23/08/2023 18:31

Thank you so much for this. I am particularly concerned about the decreased safety of public toilet blocks when they do not have gaps below the toilet doors so I will make sure I complete it.

tootiredtobother · 23/08/2023 18:40

Jeez tons to read and remember Not going to be easy to respond, which I think they hope will discourage people from filling it in

IwantToRetire · 23/08/2023 18:54

I wonder whether it is possible to just respond the questions / issues that really concern you - eg safety.

On one of the many pages you have to wade through it says:

How to respond:

You may respond by completing this online survey.

If you are responding in writing, please make it clear which questions you are responding to.

Written responses should be sent to:

Toilet provision consultation
Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities
3 NE, Fry Building
2 Marsham Street
London
SW1P 4DF
When you reply, it would be useful if you confirm whether you are replying as an individual or submitting an official response on behalf of an organisation and include:
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/toilet-provision-in-buildings-other-than-dwellings-technical-consultation/toilet-provision-in-buildings-other-than-dwellings-a-technical-consultation-paper

I would worry that responses sent as a document are somehow less likely to make it into the final report.

JanesLittleGirl · 23/08/2023 19:31

IwantToRetire · 23/08/2023 18:26

Gender-neutral, because all genders of female people can use the women's toilet as it is a facility for females.

If you read the Badenoch article in the link above it is clear that it is about biology.

And dont forget any provider of toilet even now could invoke the single sex exemption of the EA. So part of the process will be that Government making sure that public buildings understand they are have to proved facilities based on biological sex in additional to gender neutral or single sex.

Any provider that labels a toilet as 'Women', 'Ladies', etc. is automatically invoking a single sex exemption under Schedule 3 Part 7 of the EqA. This exception includes paragraph 28:

Gender reassignment

28(1)A person does not contravene section 29, so far as relating to gender reassignment discrimination, only because of anything done in relation to a matter within sub-paragraph (2) if the conduct in question is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

(2)The matters are—

(a)the provision of separate services for persons of each sex;

(b)the provision of separate services differently for persons of each sex;

(c)the provision of a service only to persons of one sex.

Tinysoxx · 23/08/2023 19:44

It’s hefty you’re right!

What is annoying is the situation I am trying to raise awareness of - as it is a huge issue - is that disabled toilets are more dangerous in many cases. My Dd is disabled and can collapse but has no awareness she may do this. She had in her school plan that she should use the girls toilets so if she was unconscious in the cubicle people would see her from the door gap. So the craze of gender neutral toilets is discriminating against her disability.
(btw it’s also protective against sexual assaults and drug use.)

IwantToRetire · 23/08/2023 20:17

Any provider that labels a toilet as 'Women', 'Ladies', etc. is automatically invoking a single sex exemption under Schedule 3 Part 7 of the EqA.

Yes we discussed this on the earlier thread. The problem is that the social contract has broken down.

So much of society has been Stonewalled that what in the past would have been natural, to tell a man to get out of the ladies, is now seen as being too difficult, or worried of being accused of being transphobic.

And those providing toilets have been equalled Stonewalled.

So even assuming provision of toilets improves, what also needs to happen is a re-education of the public and some way of ensuring trans activists dont constantly challenge and misdirect. Which is what they have been doing now for a decade or more. And have been highly effective.

And with a media that wont report accurately it is really hard to get this social change to happen.

Particularly when party politics means that politicians are too busy scoring points that implementing pratical and woman friendly options. eg the Guardian's only report on this was that barmy Badenoch was asking for more toilets when sewers couldn't deal with what they already have to take. And of course picking up on the media concocted story about a Toilet Tsar.

JanesLittleGirl · 23/08/2023 21:09

IwantToRetire · 23/08/2023 20:17

Any provider that labels a toilet as 'Women', 'Ladies', etc. is automatically invoking a single sex exemption under Schedule 3 Part 7 of the EqA.

Yes we discussed this on the earlier thread. The problem is that the social contract has broken down.

So much of society has been Stonewalled that what in the past would have been natural, to tell a man to get out of the ladies, is now seen as being too difficult, or worried of being accused of being transphobic.

And those providing toilets have been equalled Stonewalled.

So even assuming provision of toilets improves, what also needs to happen is a re-education of the public and some way of ensuring trans activists dont constantly challenge and misdirect. Which is what they have been doing now for a decade or more. And have been highly effective.

And with a media that wont report accurately it is really hard to get this social change to happen.

Particularly when party politics means that politicians are too busy scoring points that implementing pratical and woman friendly options. eg the Guardian's only report on this was that barmy Badenoch was asking for more toilets when sewers couldn't deal with what they already have to take. And of course picking up on the media concocted story about a Toilet Tsar.

Absolutely agreed. I will complete the survey but until everyone returns to the social contract, we're stuffed. We need a campaign to push back. We cannot trust politicians. We will never win by being nice. The target must be toilet providers. There must be a way of legally annoying them every time that we find a man in toilets provided for women. I don't know but maybe something along the lines of "I expected that my privacy, dignity and safety would be respected when I entered your 'Women' toilet but you failed to provide that respect by allowing men in." It needs to be coordinated with a standard set of actions. I don't want to invent a new movement. Is this something that WPUK could pick up?

DreamingBe · 23/08/2023 22:29

Whoever made the example room designs clearly hasn't spoken to women - the toilets are all in the centre of the cubicle, meaning that sanitary bins will no doubt encroach upon or even overlap with toilet seats. I couldn't see any mention of including low hand basins for children either, so they can wash their hands without being lifted to sink height by an adult.

Original poster

Heavensalongwayaway · 24/08/2023 07:42

I agree with you all. And the gap at the bottom of a cubicle saved me in a bad situation.

In some respects the regulations are the things that will be enforceable once the principles were agreed. I'm about to plough through it now.

OP posts:

Imnobody4 · 24/09/2023 17:52

Just bumping this, the closing date is Oct 8th. Anybody got any advice or useful links?