Iain MacWhirther in the Times Scotland Today

[Igneococcus]

"Labour is desperately backtracking from this self-ID mess"

He isn't really saying anything new I think but he is saying it very clearly.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dfba5954-3f60-11ee-bbc9-3b59a60ab59b?shareToken=e14756ccbafad936878f950e8baf1511

The man who took that photograph, Mike Gibbons (for the Spindrift agency) did more for women's rights than most male media people can ever dream of.

@RealityFan - I don't know how many reverse ferrets you can have until it becomes a rotating ferret!

It is the background on my phone. It reminds me every time that I know what we are up against.

That photo, and the ITV interviewer who so made Sturgeon admit her faulty thinking on Self ID, she nearly choked on her words.

Abso fucking lutely!

It's not complacency- it's reality. And it's something all parties do. For decades.

But are a good example of why things never change.

Goodness knows, if the Suffragettes had had your attitudes we wouldn't even have the vote.

Nobody is attacking you. It just your attitude is bizarre. But if that's what gets you thought each day fine.

Some of us dont want to live as victims of a system that we are just the dregs at the edge of society.

There are some people on this board who are so angry about Labour that they are prepared to read the Telegraph and an attack piece without taking in the wider context

Yet again your mono view of the world means you dont even read what people are saying.

Its not that its the Telegraph, it was to show how utterly pathetic MacWhirther's article is. Like he had just crawled out from under a stone and realised it was raining.

Get a grip.

You are the one who consistently fails to see the wider context, and instead stick with this egotistical left analysis that anybody who doesn't use the left's schoolboy dogma is stupid.

Links to article is papers are to show that (most) of the contributors to FWR are interested in looking round and finding out what is being said.

Reading articles in the Telegraph doesn't mean we believe in them. Added to whichthe so called left liberal media doesn't publish anything worth reading or is supportive of women.

Maybe just for once you could link to an article that actual shows why anyone should vote Labour instead of telling us we are tarnished by the links we post.

You aren't exactly helping Labour's cause by saying Starmer is just the run of the mill opportunistic politician and we shouldn't trust a word he says.

Am starting to think we should all vote tory, and then stage a coup. Get Sunak out and vote in Badenoch.

I wonder how much membership to the tory party is. We would join the Tory Women's Declaration Group.

The Morning Star was on this from at least 2017, allowing articles attacking the Tories' position in being about to adopt gender self-ID.

The Tories nearly did it as well. The feckin Tories. It would have imposed this shit on the whole of the UK, and would have been almost impossible to undo.

Sorry to go a bit Wolfie Smith here, but there were always 'communists' who remembered that the real roots of dismantling oppression lie in class analysis, including sex class analysis - and that oppression (and the tools of oppression) are different from 'discrimination'.

@IwantToRetire - now you are just rude, and if you disagree that's fine. But you don't have to post like that to do so.

It's fine to be angry at Labour for their stance on self ID but Starmer is a politician. He seems to be acting politically

This is too fundamentally a right or wrong issue to be "acting politically" though. You can act politically about taxation or energy politics or benefits or godknowswhat but when it comes to a question as fundamental as if a human can change sex changing your opinion based on what you think will go down well with the electorate makes you look like an opportunistic idiot. Starmer needs to realize that.

Starmer is completely opportunistic! This morning he said that he would not be able to go to university these days? What does that mean? It's rubbish. But it's designed by a committee of advisers to cut through to voters.

My other point is that this does actually seem to be working with women voters above male ones.

The man has been slowly testing opinions out for the last 18 months. And slowly the Labour machine adjusts to whatever message is said to work. That is politics for all political parties. I mean, they test out ideas all the time. Including here!

I don't expect a radical statement on this, he's quite clearly waiting for Badenoch to do the hard work, and why wouldn't he, because once Labour get into office they will get the same set of answers she's been given in terms of resolving the legal issues.

This all makes a lot of sense to me. It's what I thought you were saying at the start but it's even clearer put this way.

I don't expect a radical statement on this, he's quite clearly waiting for Badenoch to do the hard work, and why wouldn't he, because once Labour get into office they will get the same set of answers she's been given in terms of resolving the legal issues.

I suspect you are right. As much as I can't abide this kind of weasly political play, it's how the world of politics functions. If this ends up being the outcome there will be many who remember who did the heavy lifting. Badenoch in opposition (assuming a Labour win) would be quite the formidable opponent on this subject.

That’s assuming Badenoch keeps her seat of course!

It looks like a very safe seat for her, going on the numbers from 2001 onwards.

Although I really hope that Tories like Badenoch who are willing to fight our corner will still be in parliament after the next election we have to be prepared to lose some. Also, if Labour are resurgent and the LibDems succeed in ousting Tories from the seats they are targeting this will affect the make up of Select Committees. We have to really hope that there will be enough Labour MPs by then who are not afraid to speak out and challenge the detail of anything that’s proposed by a new government.

Thank you @FigRollsAlly. That is exactly my point, which is that it is extremely sensible and the right time to reengage with Labour because if gender critical women aren't part of the conversation they have, we know what happens. We are excluded.

I know some don't like it. But there is no benefit in not having these difficult conversations. The Tory Party if they lose and that looks very likely will have zero traction over the public narrative.

Leave Labour to it is a mistake. Gnashing on about their failures here won't get those guarantees and nor will bigging up Badenoch. Yes she may give Labour a hard time in opposition but opposition is nowhere.

Of course, I'm still waiting on that simple as legislative change that could be done in a month or two so none of this is necessary.... of course it wouldn't be very fair to say that the delay for that is political, is it? Instead Badenoch has appointed a toilet tsar which is thinking about the need for single sec toilets. Footling stuff given what she could apparently do.