Australia's Sam Kerr: common sense on difference in male and female sports hiding in plain sight

BonfireLady · 2023-08-17T14:19:41+00:00

I was reading an article about how Sam Kerr (the fantastic Australian and Chelsea women's footballer) used to play Aussie Rules football with boys until the age of 12. Back then, it was obvious to her Dad and her Aussie Rules coach that the difference in biology between Sam and the boys made it unsafe after this age. Aussie Rules is far more brutal than standard football ("soccer") but if this was so easy to say back then, why are some sports and some countries still failing to acknowledge it now? From the article: ^"But as good as I was out on the field, and as much as I loved playing the game, the physical differences between the guys and me eventually became too pronounced and the play was too rough.^ ^“One day, I came home from a game with yet another black eye and bloody lip, and that’s when my dad and brother both said, ‘Nup, this isn’t happening anymore’.^ ^"I was getting battered around so much out on the field that it was getting to be a big problem. Dad and my coach both sat me down then and said it was getting far too dangerous for me to continue to play"^ [[https://www.news.com.au/sport/football/sam-kerr-opens-up-on-why-she-had-to-hide-her-gender-as-a-junior-footballer/news-story/031f7ce28ba2237ffa5296a5b8bdff5c?utm_campaign=EditorialSB&utm_source=news.com.au+Sport&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_content=SocialBakers&fbclid=IwAR2Utg2lO4VEQe-ZZUWDjJqlXdkPyJINhO0NN9bsl2xlYzZWzpsYE34LheA Link]] to article

DontGetEvenGetEverything · 17/08/2023 15:47

I have nothing intelligent to add to your post, just want to share sime Kerr love!!
😍

HerAvatar · 17/08/2023 15:51

She's awesome isn't she, shame she plays for Chelsea

Helleofabore · 17/08/2023 16:44

Her dad was a professional Aussie rules player so he knew what he was talking about.

She is an amazing sportswoman.

FroodwithaKaren · 17/08/2023 16:47

Amazing woman.

The answer from those of extremist faith however is that women should re frame being battered, not be so fragile and learn to play better, with a lot of bull about what fragile flowers male people become when they have transubstantiated.

It's not hiding anywhere, it IS in plain sight. We all know. We're just dealing with a movement that stares you in the eye and insists their fantasy is the truth regardless of reason and fact. And has no conscience whatsoever about what happens to women so long as a male person never encounters limits on their freedom of self expression.

Abhannmor · 17/08/2023 17:49

What a player and that goal....if it was some bloke from Réal or Barca it would be goal of the season. And I'm a bloke.

But yeah...biology.

Original poster

BonfireLady · 17/08/2023 18:09

A phenomenal goal indeed @Abhannmor

I quite agree @HerAvatar 😁 My daughter (football fan and girls' team player) thinks it was Sam Kerr who thumped in the final goal when we were in Wembley stadium last year cheering on City at the FA Cup Women's final. Sadly we were behind the goal and had an excellent view of it being walloped in.

The answer from those of extremist faith however is that women should re frame being battered, not be so fragile and learn to play better, with a lot of bull about what fragile flowers male people become when they have transubstantiated.

Indeed. I'm quite in awe of the power of faith (in fact as an atheist I find myself jealous sometimes of religious faith and the community and strength that people get from their belief) but what I really can't understand is how a belief in gender identity suddenly changes real biology for everyone, including non-believers of gender identity, to the point where the rules are re-written with a certainty that gender is real rather than a belief.

Along with Canada, Australia seems to be particularly enveloped in institutional gender identity belief. That's why it struck me as odd that we've got this article happily stating (the obvious) that girls would get injured playing together with boys on the one hand... and a male-bodied transwoman Riley Dennis playing women's football, while merrily injuring female players, on the other. How does that work?

OP posts:

ACatCalledPushka · 17/08/2023 18:54

She is awesome!

DontGetEvenGetEverything · 21/08/2023 07:50

"Along with Canada, Australia seems to be particularly enveloped in institutional gender identity belief. That's why it struck me as odd that we've got this article happily stating (the obvious) that girls would get injured playing together with boys on the one hand... and a male-bodied transwoman Riley Dennis playing women's football, while merrily injuring female players, on the other. How does that work?"

@BonfireLady I've been giving your question alot of thought over the last few days.
I don't have any social scientific data or experience myself, so these musings are all anecdotal.
One thing that I think is going on is that Australian sport has been deeply homophobic in the past. And there's alot of window dressing now, but I think for alot of sportspeople, coaches and decision makers that visceral disgust remains. The way they feel when they think of sharing a spa with a gay teammate is like a kick inside, but they've learned those feelings are not to be trusted. The right thing to do is ignore the feeling and treat the gay players the same as the straight players.
Which is true. If you have a deep, irrational disgust brought on by gay people, the right thing to do is to not act on that feeling.
The trouble is when people see a male person with a gender identity pulverising a female player in a contact sport they have a visceral reaction, but they've learned not to trust those reactions. They've learned to stick to the script.

Original poster

BonfireLady · 21/08/2023 09:21

DontGetEvenGetEverything · 21/08/2023 07:50

"Along with Canada, Australia seems to be particularly enveloped in institutional gender identity belief. That's why it struck me as odd that we've got this article happily stating (the obvious) that girls would get injured playing together with boys on the one hand... and a male-bodied transwoman Riley Dennis playing women's football, while merrily injuring female players, on the other. How does that work?"

@BonfireLady I've been giving your question alot of thought over the last few days.
I don't have any social scientific data or experience myself, so these musings are all anecdotal.
One thing that I think is going on is that Australian sport has been deeply homophobic in the past. And there's alot of window dressing now, but I think for alot of sportspeople, coaches and decision makers that visceral disgust remains. The way they feel when they think of sharing a spa with a gay teammate is like a kick inside, but they've learned those feelings are not to be trusted. The right thing to do is ignore the feeling and treat the gay players the same as the straight players.
Which is true. If you have a deep, irrational disgust brought on by gay people, the right thing to do is to not act on that feeling.
The trouble is when people see a male person with a gender identity pulverising a female player in a contact sport they have a visceral reaction, but they've learned not to trust those reactions. They've learned to stick to the script.

That is a genius observation WRT Australia! It was well worth you mulling over to tease that one out.

I wonder if Reduxx or other similar publications have ever explored this angle. It feels like it's got legs for some long form journalism. If people have things like that held to them as a mirror they often find it opens their eyes. Fundamentally, most people want to be kind and some of the very kindest will follow whatever method it takes to "iron out" their own prejudices. Especially if mainstream media and social media, underpinned by EDI training plus laws being updated in Australia to allow gender-identity to supersede biological sex, is giving clear messages that your "transphobic" views are outdated.

OP posts:

Helleofabore · 21/08/2023 09:41

DontGetEvenGetEverything · 21/08/2023 07:50

"Along with Canada, Australia seems to be particularly enveloped in institutional gender identity belief. That's why it struck me as odd that we've got this article happily stating (the obvious) that girls would get injured playing together with boys on the one hand... and a male-bodied transwoman Riley Dennis playing women's football, while merrily injuring female players, on the other. How does that work?"

@BonfireLady I've been giving your question alot of thought over the last few days.
I don't have any social scientific data or experience myself, so these musings are all anecdotal.
One thing that I think is going on is that Australian sport has been deeply homophobic in the past. And there's alot of window dressing now, but I think for alot of sportspeople, coaches and decision makers that visceral disgust remains. The way they feel when they think of sharing a spa with a gay teammate is like a kick inside, but they've learned those feelings are not to be trusted. The right thing to do is ignore the feeling and treat the gay players the same as the straight players.
Which is true. If you have a deep, irrational disgust brought on by gay people, the right thing to do is to not act on that feeling.
The trouble is when people see a male person with a gender identity pulverising a female player in a contact sport they have a visceral reaction, but they've learned not to trust those reactions. They've learned to stick to the script.

While I agree there was historically homophobia in Australian sport, I cannot get my head around your statement that “I think for alot of sportspeople, coaches and decision makers that visceral disgust remains”.

Do you make this observation at elite level or local level? Male or female? Or both?

Obviously there are issues, I am sure there are people who agree with Folau and Margaret Court for example, but aren’t they the minority?

DontGetEvenGetEverything · 21/08/2023 12:39

I'm not sure, @Helleofabore, this is completely anecdotal so I don't know how skewed my experience is, or how much I'm understanding what other people describe of their experiences.
But when I say "visceral disgust" I'm not talking about the thought out religious positions of people like Folau and Court. I'm thinking more of Aussie Skip culture, where male affection is forbidden. Now I think it's more acceptable, especially between men and their mothers and their children, but for previous generations of men non-sexual physical affection was never permitted. The one exception to that was the sports team - hugs, sometimes kisses, pats on the bum, pressed shoulder to shoulder in the spa. But there was a lingering suspicion, does the fact I enjoy this human contact make me a poofter? So it had to be accompanied with lots of homophobic comments. And even for gay men in that culture, the homophobia was directed inwards.

I have a gay friend who teaches in primary schools and he says that disgust reaction has disappeared from our culture (i.e. kids are no longer learning it). But I don't think it is always expunged in older men who were raised in a deeply homophobic culture, even when they learn to ignore the disgust reaction.

Helleofabore · 21/08/2023 12:51

DontGetEvenGetEverything · 21/08/2023 12:39

I'm not sure, @Helleofabore, this is completely anecdotal so I don't know how skewed my experience is, or how much I'm understanding what other people describe of their experiences.
But when I say "visceral disgust" I'm not talking about the thought out religious positions of people like Folau and Court. I'm thinking more of Aussie Skip culture, where male affection is forbidden. Now I think it's more acceptable, especially between men and their mothers and their children, but for previous generations of men non-sexual physical affection was never permitted. The one exception to that was the sports team - hugs, sometimes kisses, pats on the bum, pressed shoulder to shoulder in the spa. But there was a lingering suspicion, does the fact I enjoy this human contact make me a poofter? So it had to be accompanied with lots of homophobic comments. And even for gay men in that culture, the homophobia was directed inwards.

I have a gay friend who teaches in primary schools and he says that disgust reaction has disappeared from our culture (i.e. kids are no longer learning it). But I don't think it is always expunged in older men who were raised in a deeply homophobic culture, even when they learn to ignore the disgust reaction.

That is interesting.

Because while you are correct about the past generations, I think it needs to be pointed out that the current generations who are in coaching positions and sport management and players are not really that generation.

There are still some issues with male homosexual sports people who might still feel they cannot be openly gay or bisexual. However, I also know from anecdotes that female homosexuality at elite level and metro level in some sports was known about and accepted even in the 90s within the teams. Now you could say that those players didn't make public statements about their sexuality, and frankly, why on earth should they unless they wanted to, but their careers were not impacted by their sexual orientation.

DontGetEvenGetEverything · 21/08/2023 13:47

You're right - I was at high school in the 90s and sporting world was more like a refuge for lesbian / questioning female teens. I'd forgotten that.

WarriorN · 21/08/2023 18:27

From bits and bobs I know of sporting science for females, they've been way behind on all sorts of things.

I remember couple of years ago that woman's hour discussing evidence that women's sporting head injuries had much worse long term consequences than men's and that the research was only just starting to be looked at.

Stacy Sim was working on sports nutrition research and discovered by accident that her results as a female were entirely opposite to male's but they weren't particularly interested (or similar, I watched it ages ago!)

Aptly labelled 'women aren't small men.'

https://www.ted.com/talks/stacy simsswomen areenot smalllmen aaparadigm shifttin theescience off_nutrition

I suspect in the future catch up women's sporting science will provide a lot of the obvious prove that men can't be women.

WarriorN · 21/08/2023 18:33

Just watched a bit again; she participated in a lab running test and got the same results as the men one week and completely different the next. When she asked what was going on she was told:

"Women are an anomaly so we don't study women in exercise nutrition or sporting science"

Of course that's what she then did

WarriorN · 21/08/2023 18:37

That's such a terfy ted talk 😆

I don't know much about football, but if Sam Kerr plays for Chelsea I do believe they have used a lot of the same terfy ideas that Sim was researching in order to be brilliant 🤩