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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Peak Guardian: We’re a queer couple looking for co-parents to raise a child with

96 replies

RoyalCorgi · 13/08/2023 18:45

This falls squarely in the "only in the Guardian" category. A special mention to:

"In our experience, co-parenting seems to overwhelmingly appeal to cis women, trans men and non-binary people assigned female at birth."

If only there was a collective word for that group of people.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/aug/13/queer-couple-co-parents-raise-child

We’re a queer couple looking for co-parents to raise a child with. It’s been quite a saga | Eleanor Margolis

From unsolicited offers of sperm to ‘procreation freaks’, our quest for someone just right has certainly been an eye-opener, says journalist Eleanor Margolis

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/aug/13/queer-couple-co-parents-raise-child?CMP=fb_cif

OP posts:
FlirtsWithRhinos · 14/08/2023 18:32

Theeyeballsinthesky · 13/08/2023 19:13

I think the best (worst) bit was the follow on sentence

“In our experience, co-parenting seems to overwhelmingly appeal to cis women, trans men and non-binary people assigned female at birth. Without any exhaustive studies on this, I can only guess why.

yep we definitely need exhaustive studies to establish why it’s women that are more interested

I think Eleanor was making an entirely conscious and deliberate GC point here.

TangledRoots · 14/08/2023 18:56

RedToothBrush · 14/08/2023 17:49

And I said they needed to give a lot more thought rather than pretending it was all smiles and I didn't think it was often child centred to add extra people to the mix. And you can argue the same with regards to many step parents too.

Apologies about weighing in.

Obviously heterosexual people have the easiest time of creating a family and needing to make the fewest adjustments to make it work, by virtue of biology. Of course a minority of heterosexuals can experience infertility, dysfunctional relationships, divorce, etc.

The problem is that best case structure for homosexual parented families is the worst case scenario for heterosexuals eg- infertility- donor gametes and surrogacy - which cause genetic bewilderment and betrayal for the child, or divorce - leading complicated co-parenting across more than one household, which cause instability and disruption.

If you talk about ‘stressors’ and their impact on outcomes for the child, it is unfair to compare the best case scenario for homosexual parents with the worst case scenario for heterosexual parents.

I’ve noticed this done a lot.

For example we’re told ‘children born of multi-household co-parenting situations of homosexual parents do better than multi-household co-parenting situations of heterosexual parents, because they don’t have the stressors of conflict and divorce’.

However, this is a best case compared with a worst case. How about a comparable of the outcomes for children of a happy, stable, biologically related, heterosexual-parented home, compared with well-parented children born of donor gametes, surrogacy, or multi-household co-parenting?

TangledRoots · 14/08/2023 19:03

You get the impression of selectively sliced statistics.

ArabeIIaScott · 14/08/2023 19:19

I dunno, I just think that an ideal family situation doesn't really exist for many if not most people. We have to get on with it regardless.

In my experience, families are often messy. (That's not always a bad thing). They may encompass fall-outs, separate households, divorce, step families, parents having affairs, depressive parents, unconventional set ups, single parents, children raised by grandparents - even great grandparents, migration, bereavement, illness, bankruptcy, poverty, unexpected accidental pregnancies - life is just one damn thing after another.

I can also think of some of the most dysfunctional and unhappy families I know that are two parents, living in comfort in suburbia.

I just think families need to be flexible enough to encompass all the tragedy and comedy and drama and mundanity of life. I see lots of different households and set ups that aren't two parent and it seems to work reasonably well for the most part.

TheClogLady · 14/08/2023 19:42

Maybe it’s a working class thing but I can count on one hand the number of married, stable home, heterosexual parents I know that haven’t got at least one extra child preexisting the marriage (either together or just one of them) and neither parent has an addiction nor had an affair, unless the fam are first/second gen immigrants AND follow a conservative religion (and they might have affairs and secret kids too, but are just better at keeping them secret?)

Maybe we should ban the gays AND the proles from breeding? 😉😂

AuntieJune · 14/08/2023 19:54

Pretty sure these people see parenting as 80% fun and 20% drudgery, when you could really reverse those figures most days.

I'd wager the biological mothers are the ones who end up wiping the high chair down five times a day and rinsing shit off things.

TangledRoots · 14/08/2023 20:07

TheClogLady · 14/08/2023 19:42

Maybe it’s a working class thing but I can count on one hand the number of married, stable home, heterosexual parents I know that haven’t got at least one extra child preexisting the marriage (either together or just one of them) and neither parent has an addiction nor had an affair, unless the fam are first/second gen immigrants AND follow a conservative religion (and they might have affairs and secret kids too, but are just better at keeping them secret?)

Maybe we should ban the gays AND the proles from breeding? 😉😂

I’m sure you could find dysfunctional homosexual couples too. I am not convinced by the narrative that ‘homosexuals are better parents with better relationships and better outcomes for children’, if there is not a like for like comparison.

AgnestaVipers · 14/08/2023 20:26

I don't know about gay male parents, but at least with lesbian couples you take men out of the equation altogether, which if Mumsnet is anything to go by, would make for a more healthy home life.

TheClogLady · 14/08/2023 20:42

TangledRoots · 14/08/2023 20:07

I’m sure you could find dysfunctional homosexual couples too. I am not convinced by the narrative that ‘homosexuals are better parents with better relationships and better outcomes for children’, if there is not a like for like comparison.

I don’t think anyone claimed ‘better’, metely that statistically, the children raised in lesbian partnerships do not appear to be disadvantaged compared to children raised by opposite sexed couples.

There is no competition mode engaged between hetero and homosexual couples and much of what feminists argue against in terms of reproductive tech/political lobbying is equally relevant to heterosexual couples and singles as it is to homosexual couples (eg surrogacy is awful regardless of whether the baby-buying couple is female/male or male/male. I would imagine that female/female baby buyers are vanishingly rare so they don’t usually come up in those conversations).

Ketzele · 14/08/2023 20:46

Very depressing to see how some posters are using GC to slate lesbian/gay co-parenting. How DO you think lesbians should have children? Because I also see lots of disapproval of using anonymous sperm donors on this board.

This is how I had my first child, now a young adult. It wasn't an easy route but she has turned out marvellously, and her dad is still an involved and loving father. My second child was adopted (an option not open to us as a lesbian couple till recently).

It's been bloody hard work making this family thrive but so worth it. I'm so sick of people sneering that my children are 'a lifestyle accessory'.

Ketzele · 14/08/2023 20:47

And in case I'm not clear, this young woman comes across as an eejit, but the least we can all do is not respond with casual homophobia.

MixedTocopherols · 14/08/2023 21:41

It was me who used the term ‘lifestyle accessory’ I think. But I was not referring to the idea of lesbian and gay co-parenting. I was commenting about the general tone of the column.

Basically I was agreeing with what a pp had already said before me, that it seemed like the columnist was more focused on what would suit her and fit in with her needs than what would suit a baby.

MixedTocopherols · 14/08/2023 21:50

And it’s a fair point that as a different pp has subsequently pointed out, the same was probably true of a lot of us before we had children. I guess the difference, to me, is that most of us weren’t being given a chance to write breezy Guardian columns about it. If we had been, I’m sure we’d have come across badly as well.

TheClogLady · 14/08/2023 22:30

Yes, the genderwoo, the naivety about what parenting actually entails and the self importance of thinking you’ve invented something that your predecessors have been doing for donkeys years make for a very annoying article.

if the writer and her partner weren’t in denial about being in a Lesbian relationship they could’ve tapped into a ready made (albeit currently somewhat underground!) community of lesbian elders for some solid, practical advice on what this sort of arrangement is really like.
Instead they have rebranded theyselves as Queer/Trans/plus etc and thus cut themselves off from the wisdom of those older women (who might also have been able to introduce them to new friendship circles where potential male co parents exist).

Putting the irritation aside the most interesting thing about this article is the revelation (or perhaps just confirmation?) that fertility tech has created a split between men in same sex relationships and women in same sex relationships that didn’t exist previously - once upon a time co parenting, whether full shared custody or more part time involvement was an arrangement that suited the G as well as the L.

Now that the G can cut the L out of the picture (as long as they have the dosh) they are (mostly) doing just that.

Interesting that a larger proportion of women (or ‘AFAB Queers’ in their parlance) still see some sort of benefit in having a male parent involved, even if in the author’s case that involvement seems to be a naive belief that the male person will do both free sperm and free babysitting?

Absolutely no reason to change the law though, as what already exists can work perfectly adequately (on the birth certificate the woman who gave birth is mother and the sperm provider is father, their same sex spouses/civil partners can have additional parental responsibility via step parent agreement, which both bio parents have to agree to).

No need to pretend a baby has four biological parents for 2 same sex couples to make a legal commitment to one child.

Once upon a time we routinely lived near our parents and siblings and benefitted from the extended family (grandparents, aunties/uncles and cousins etc). Capitalism, housing costs, cheap international travel, falling in love on the internet and having babies later on in life means that vast swathes of us no longer have the sort of extended family support that our mothers and grandmothers had.

Perhaps co parenting as two couples puts back some of that ‘it takes a village to raise a child’ stuff that modern life is often missing?

Seems less messy/easier to organise than blending second marriage families (if both parents remarry and the new step parents have children too, and the exes of the step parents remarry, well… it can be very difficult to work out who is where at Xmas!)

SammyScrounge · 15/08/2023 00:44

RoyalCorgi · 13/08/2023 19:07

Maybe I'm a bit old-fashioned, but as there are two of them, I don't understand why one of them can't get pregnant using donated sperm, and the child can be brought up with two parents.

Mind you, if they're absolutely set on the co-parent thing, they could ask Owen Jones - I'm sure he'd be delighted.

Please no.The child is going to suffer enough.

drspouse · 15/08/2023 00:46

I do know that the research studies show
a) Lesbian parents give children as good an outcome as straight parents (the older studies tend to be of women who were previously married to a man, I'm assuming the control families are those who also split up - but in these situations the children know their fathers).
b) Lesbian or straight parents who use donor sperm tend to give children as good an outcome as families who don't use donor sperm
c) But many adults who were conceived using donor sperm (i.e. no contact with their biological father because it used to be all anonymous) feel very disconnected and deceived due to not having access to half their genetic family, lack of medical information etc.

The older situations - those best studied, through to adult life - will be those where either nobody knows their biological father, or it's a standard "divorce and mum's new OH" situation. I'm not sure however if those have been compared to each other as that's closer to what we're talking about.

TangledRoots · 15/08/2023 08:27

drspouse · 15/08/2023 00:46

I do know that the research studies show
a) Lesbian parents give children as good an outcome as straight parents (the older studies tend to be of women who were previously married to a man, I'm assuming the control families are those who also split up - but in these situations the children know their fathers).
b) Lesbian or straight parents who use donor sperm tend to give children as good an outcome as families who don't use donor sperm
c) But many adults who were conceived using donor sperm (i.e. no contact with their biological father because it used to be all anonymous) feel very disconnected and deceived due to not having access to half their genetic family, lack of medical information etc.

The older situations - those best studied, through to adult life - will be those where either nobody knows their biological father, or it's a standard "divorce and mum's new OH" situation. I'm not sure however if those have been compared to each other as that's closer to what we're talking about.

Thanks for this.

It confirms what I intuited.

I wonder what outcomes they are measuring, because I would have thought that (c) undermines finding (b). Perhaps inner feelings such as a person’s secure self-identity and sense of belonging are not easy metrics to pinpoint, so they rely on external measures like hospital visits, social services interventions and GCSE grades, which give a superficial picture.

It’s beside the point of this thread, but I would be interested in the outcomes for egg donor and surrogate mother-born adults too.

TheClogLady · 15/08/2023 08:37

(c) undermines finding (b)

Which is why we no longer have anon sperm donation in the U.K.
Donor conceived kids can apply for the info at 18.

That doesn’t resolve all feelings of genealogical bewilderment for all kids though, which is why IMO the scenario this thread is about, coparenting with the other biological parent, is (usually) better.

There are some very long threads on the board re: gamete donation and surrogacy.

TangledRoots · 15/08/2023 08:38

In my opinion, those inner feelings can be almost more important than the external measures because they can screw people up and make them waste their lives on unhappiness because unresolved issues. For example -a woman I knew, on paper, had great outcomes- healthy, gorgeous, intelligent, articulate, talented, great work ethic, etc - but her self-esteem was on the floor and she couldn’t shake the feeling that her life was worthless - she couldn’t enjoy her life. It was because her dad kidnapped her and took her abroad when she was a kid, her mum found her and kidnapped her back, he did it again and she did it again. Being treated as a ‘thing’ a possession was devastating.

TangledRoots · 15/08/2023 08:39

TheClogLady · 15/08/2023 08:37

(c) undermines finding (b)

Which is why we no longer have anon sperm donation in the U.K.
Donor conceived kids can apply for the info at 18.

That doesn’t resolve all feelings of genealogical bewilderment for all kids though, which is why IMO the scenario this thread is about, coparenting with the other biological parent, is (usually) better.

There are some very long threads on the board re: gamete donation and surrogacy.

I agree with you that co-parenting is better.

TangledRoots · 15/08/2023 09:15

This thread is obliquely about surrogacy, because the article suggests that gay men are now far more interested in buying a baby abroad than they are in entering into a ‘known donor’ or co-parenting agreement with lesbians. This would, i imagine, lead more lesbians to believe their only option is (anonymous) donor sperm.

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