Has anyone read Mad Honey by Jodi Picout and Jennifer Finney Boylan

[Madhoney]

I'd consider myself gender critical. I was given this book and normally I love Jodi Picout books, so I started to read it.

Part way through the main character visiting a transwoman and getting 'educated' about transgenderism. The transwoman claims that if someone has had 'bottom surgery', nobody would know unless she told them.

Later, in court, the gender affirmation surgeon testifies that the defendant couldn't possibly have known that the person he was having sex with was a transwoman unless they had chosen to divulge that information, because 'bottom surgery' is so good that in every way the transwoman has a vagina.

I was pretty sure, from my reading, that this surgery causes huge side effects and requires frequent dilation and hormones, etc., to prevent atrophy?

It all felt like a big preach of TWAW.

I listened to the audiobook, and funnily enough there was a natal female reading the transwoman part, probably because the twist would have been obvious if they’d had a transwoman reading it.
And yes, it was a load of tripe.

A cursory glance at any 3 pages of the SRS/GRS thread on KF would inform anyone that a neovagina is very, very different to a vagina. Plus, not to put too fine a point on it, I'm lead to believe that they are very different in action, as it were. Being made of different materials and being positioned on bodies not originally designed to have a vagina. The authors of the book either did no research, or are making free with their artistic licence.

What a load of tripe. Thanks for the heads up, I’ll be sure to never buy it.

My husband read it, he usually rates JP but didn't like this one - he said it read like propaganda and that the second author wasn't very good.

Jennifer Finney Boylan is male.

Sounds like wish fulfilment to me.

I've not read it, but I can't imagine any type of court case hinging on someone not knowing a person was a transwoman without being told, long before they got to the having sex bit. Surely voice, height, shape, gait, smell, hair etc all gave it away, before they got their clothes off?! I know that photos and brief meetings can sometimes mean you can't tell, but surely not with the level of intimacy that someone would have had in this case. Let alone the rest of the anatomy down below not being right. It doesn't sound like it would be a very credible book if it's based on this sort of 'twist'.

JFB is a trans-rights activist.

Ahh this explains a lot. I know someone who loves Jodi Picout. I was surprised they were so dismissive of my GC views and now I see where they got their information.

I might have misremembered this but I believe that Jodi Picoult has a trans child so possibly explains why she chooses to believe this

I read this on holiday, normally don’t mind a JP book as they tend to be reasonable courtroom who dunnits. I hadn’t really picked up on the dual author thing or looked into them at all.

I was so pissed off at the twist, it was utterly ridiculous and based entirely on the fact that the character in question had ‘completely reversible’ puberty blockers which the mother was happy for them to have because if it was just a phase they go stop and no harm done, followed by bottom surgery at the age of 16/17 (can’t recall but deffo under 18) which was so realistic (including allowing for orgasm if recollection serves me right, the poor hapless boyfriend had no idea. The character is regularly described as petite and sprightly, and as someone else said reads like wishful thinking but I imagine many will take it as gospel.

I’m still annoyed about it now tbh. Ridiculous false propaganda.

ok the puberty blockers explain how it might have been written in a slightly more credible way than I imagined, but I think there'd still be a lot more physical clues besides just bottom surgery (which can't be that convincing surely, as there's so much missing/different). Even if the puberty blockers were taken at age 9 or whenever they'd need to be, I find it hard to imagine that just taking female hormones would create the shape, smell etc of an adult female without the underlying biology being there.

Same as other people have said. I usually enjoy Jodi Picoult but this was just bullshit propaganda. It was so disappointing.

There are cases of relationships where the partner claims not to have known. Don't we want partners to accept us even if we have unusual bodies?

I'm bored stiff of Jodi Picoult and not much interested in what sounds like an onslaught of propaganda but in terms of the central point of whether a person would always know they were with a trans partner, I should think it occasionally happens that they don't. Most things you can imagine happen occasionally in human life. However, I should think it's much more likely to be due to a very inexperienced partner than the 'magic' of puberty blockers.

Well what a bleedin surprise

I read it and found the 'twist' annoying for the same reasons as pps, but the boyfriend was a teenager and not terribly experienced, not a virgin but iirc he hadn't had many partners so might not know. The whole court thing was ridiculous though.

Same

Jodi Picoult blocked me on Twitter. I can't remember exactly why but it was probably something like "humans can't change sex"

Jodi Picout is normally incredibly well researched when she writes a novel. I remember reading that she spends months researching and her previous books, such as Nineteen Minutes, were full of subtle dilemmas and contradictory viewpoints.

I thought that with Mad Honey, it was really obvious which bits were written by JP and which by JFB (chapter 5 particularly). The tone changed and it became an essay on trans-rights and gender theory, not a novel.

I wonder how long ago it was recorded? Now it would be hugely frowned upon to have a natal female playing the part of a TW.

I used to work for the vice squad. We had a new officer transferred and he was shocked that one of our regulars was a transwoman. Same transwoman caught in the act with a customer (oral not full sex) and when arrested the customer wouldn't believe he'd been with a man. Once they convinced him they said he started vomiting. To be fair I knew them before they transitioned, not tall, very slim, nice hair. Don't know if it would have been convincing if it had been intercourse. Don't know about smell but definitely walked like a woman walks in very high heels.

Jfb was born male and married with two sons. Then had full surgery...I am no expert but ongoing hormone treatment is needed...and remains with the original wife. So would have personal experience.
Also Jim now Jenny is a respected academic...and would have academic works under both names.
I must read this...I got fed up with Jodi Picoult but the two authors is intriguing. Although having read replies it isn't very successful!

I think one of the son’s transitioned (mtf) too!

The book was published in October last year, so it must have been about a year ago that it was recorded.

Winston Blair recently did a long interview with a detransitioner (MtFtM), Alexander. s

Alexander says he now wonders if the photos the surgeon showed him before surgery were all fake. His result is 'nowhere near' a 'natural vagina'. He describes it as a wound (this is several years post surgery) that has caused him extreme pain and complications.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.leedsandyorkpft.nhs.uk/our-services/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/10/v3_vaginoplasty-leaflet_gender_dysphoria.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjc8oPJvMuAAxXxXUEAHVauAz4QFnoECA4QBg&usg=AOvVaw2M4CLo3MJWQcc9HlZoqUMW

This leaflet is from Leeds and York PFT and lists some pretty awful complications from 'gender feminising surgery'.