Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gary L. Francione thoughts The Trans Rights Issue: Equality Claims and Belief Claims

20 replies

CampervanKween · 04/08/2023 23:55

https://www.abolitionistapproach.com/the-trans-rights-issue-equality-claims-and-belief-claims/

Think this is a really interesting article. He's getting stick on X but not backing down.

The Trans Rights Issue: Equality Claims and Belief Claims – Animal Rights The Abolitionist Approach

https://www.abolitionistapproach.com/the-trans-rights-issue-equality-claims-and-belief-claims

OP posts:
OldCrone · 05/08/2023 06:07

It's very long. I haven't read it all, just skimmed it. He makes a convincing comparison between genderist beliefs and conventional religions.

No one has the right to demand that others accept their metaphysical beliefs as literally true, and to change their conduct to accommodate the supposed truth of those beliefs.

Usually followers of a religious belief system don't force everyone else to comply with the requirements of their religion and to show that they also believe what followers of that religion believe. That's what is being asked of us all when we're expected to use specific pronouns for people who identify as trans and chant TWAW.

This note at the end is also interesting. He's not the first to kicked off medium.com for not complying with the demands of the genderist belief system.

NOTE: This essay was originally posted on Medium.com. I have been writing on Medium.com for several years. The essay was removed because “We do not allow content that may undermine the dignity and rights of transgender and/or non-binary individuals. This may include misgendering, dead-naming, claims that transgender individuals are not their gender identity (“trans women are men”), or erroneous claims based on disinformation or pseudoscience.” I apparently violated the rules because I stated the fact that trans women are biological males. I will have more to say about this at a later time.

JaukiVexnoydi · 05/08/2023 06:34

I only had time to read about two thirds of it but I agree with the position the author is describing. Do you have links to the twitter/X reaction to it? Are there any rational counter-arguments?

ArcticSkewer · 05/08/2023 06:37

"Usually followers of a religious belief system don't force everyone else to comply with the requirements of their religion and to show that they also believe what followers of that religion believe"

That's not what history says.

BonfireLady · 05/08/2023 08:28

That's a really great (and very long!) essay.

Personally, I don't agree with him on gender being a social construct or that it explains how people comform to "gender" stereotypes. I don't use the word gender to describe sexism and sex-based stereotypes because I don't think that gender exists (although I accept that others do and that for some people, gender and gender identity are very important). I think there are sex-based stereotypes and that society pushes these on people. However, it's a minor quibble.

I had a quick Google to see if I could find his tweet on this. I couldn't but I did find a Facebook post from 2019... He seems to have changed his mind on this one. Great news that he has, but a small nod to that in the current essay might have been a good idea.

Gary L. Francione thoughts The Trans Rights Issue: Equality Claims and Belief Claims
OldCrone · 05/08/2023 08:35

ArcticSkewer · 05/08/2023 06:37

"Usually followers of a religious belief system don't force everyone else to comply with the requirements of their religion and to show that they also believe what followers of that religion believe"

That's not what history says.

Yes, of course. I was referring to religion in modern western society.

Froodwithatowel · 05/08/2023 08:41

There is a lot of good, dispassionate and well argued stuff in there, that reflects the kind of conversations this board was having about five years ago.

It is not clear whether the writer is intentionally presenting a very sanitised version of the situation for reasons of the message being less arguable, more palatable, etc etc, or is unaware of several things he skims right over, or simply does not think those things particularly matter.

But there is a good deal more to the issues for women of not being permitted spaces of their own than just the safety one, he does not address the inequality of exclusion of some women who cannot engage in enacting a belief that a person they perceive as a man is something other than a man for example. And he makes his case on a presented agreement that every male wishing to identify and use womens spaces is doing so in genuine good faith and with nothing more than a fear of their own risk in male spaces.

Women have been wading through the sewage for years now that this is not the case or main reason for entering women's spaces at all, and that there are many, many less sanitised and pure aspects to male people wishing to use their spaces than just simply a desire to be safe.

It's difficult. It is beyond good to see this kind of reasoned argument appearing which, let's face it, is really one man talking to other men, and there is much very good stuff in it. Conversations we've had here for years. But it's depressing that there is still so very, very far to go, and how very little people listen to what women say.

CampervanKween · 05/08/2023 09:52

He's fighting his corner. Seems a lot of disappointed followers, but he really doesn't seem to care.

https://twitter.com/garylfrancione/status/1687517306732388352?t=98TdmGFw2SmTV6DeNy2K1A&s=19

https://twitter.com/garylfrancione/status/1687517306732388352?s=19&t=98TdmGFw2SmTV6DeNy2K1A

OP posts:
ArcticSkewer · 05/08/2023 09:57

OldCrone · 05/08/2023 08:35

Yes, of course. I was referring to religion in modern western society.

Possibly.

I think it's a hallmark of most religious followers across most societies and most ages, including our modern day gender religion. Par for the course.

StephanieSuperpowers · 05/08/2023 09:59

Poor old Laurie Penny.

OldCrone · 05/08/2023 10:06

CampervanKween · 05/08/2023 09:52

He's fighting his corner. Seems a lot of disappointed followers, but he really doesn't seem to care.

https://twitter.com/garylfrancione/status/1687517306732388352?t=98TdmGFw2SmTV6DeNy2K1A&s=19

He seems to be a very committed vegan and animal rights activist. I'm sure he's used to fending off everything from polite disagreement to violent threats from people who disagree with him.

veganfemale · 05/08/2023 10:13

Engaging with this guy on Facebook circa 2019 was one of my peaking moments.

His main interest is animal rights. In 2019 he was basically Billy Bragg, saying that it was fine for men to identify as women and anyone who disagrees with that is a nazi Terf.

If you read the whole long essay he does acknowledge his change of perspective. He's clearly read Helen Joyce and Kathleen Stock and given their arguments thought. He also sees the danger that transactivism poses to the Left.

Agree that he's still naive about different factors that drive men or boys and women or girls to identify as trans.

Igmum · 05/08/2023 11:00

Interesting article - all the more so if he is a peaked TRA. Here's hoping for many more such reformed zealots

BonfireLady · 05/08/2023 11:07

veganfemale · 05/08/2023 10:13

Engaging with this guy on Facebook circa 2019 was one of my peaking moments.

His main interest is animal rights. In 2019 he was basically Billy Bragg, saying that it was fine for men to identify as women and anyone who disagrees with that is a nazi Terf.

If you read the whole long essay he does acknowledge his change of perspective. He's clearly read Helen Joyce and Kathleen Stock and given their arguments thought. He also sees the danger that transactivism poses to the Left.

Agree that he's still naive about different factors that drive men or boys and women or girls to identify as trans.

If you read the whole long essay he does acknowledge his change of perspective. He's clearly read Helen Joyce and Kathleen Stock and given their arguments thought. He also sees the danger that transactivism poses to the Left.

Ah, good news. I will confess that I skimmed some bits due to the sheer length of it all! In which case I apologise Gary, if you're reading this 😁 Very happy to be corrected on that.

And yes @Igmum I totally agree that it's great that he is a former TRA, now being very clear and vocal the other way.

Standingongrass · 05/08/2023 11:15

OldCrone · 05/08/2023 10:06

He seems to be a very committed vegan and animal rights activist. I'm sure he's used to fending off everything from polite disagreement to violent threats from people who disagree with him.

It’s really disappointing how the animal rights community and anti-fascist community have embraced this shit. I think they are dim enough to think gender ideology is anti-establishment when actually it IS the establishment I think the blue hair and wacky clothes fool them.

veganfemale · 05/08/2023 13:21

Standingongrass · 05/08/2023 11:15

It’s really disappointing how the animal rights community and anti-fascist community have embraced this shit. I think they are dim enough to think gender ideology is anti-establishment when actually it IS the establishment I think the blue hair and wacky clothes fool them.

It is so baffling. As if a dairy cow could identify out of her sex and have a mastectomy?

But as Gary Francione says in his essay there is a lazy assumption by progressives that there's a package of views they have to subscribe to.

It's like the cringey BBC 'edgy comedy' programmes where privileged white men parrot the establishment line.

Abhannmor · 05/08/2023 20:13

My son mafe that remark about his peer group @veganfemale ' they buy their politics as a job lot unexamined '.

ZeldaFighter · 05/08/2023 22:17

I read it all and thought it was thoughtful, compassionate and well argued. Hopefully, it will help move the debate forward.

One of the slight disappointments I felt was that his solution was single-occupancy facilities. The loss of women's communal spaces, to talk and act candidly without men in the toilets or changing rooms, is a sad, modern development and feels very much like the olden days, where groups were not allowed to meet together in case they fermented rebellion. I miss those spaces and younger women will never know the community they have lost. I think that is a male answer to the problem and I think there's potentially a better way (reinstate the social contract of single-sex spaces)

SinnerBoy · 05/08/2023 22:47

This may include misgendering, dead-naming, claims that transgender individuals are not their gender identity (“trans women are men”), or erroneous claims based on disinformation or pseudoscience.”

Pseudoscience? Or "science," as it's known in the world of rational people. The opposite side is punting alchemy and claiming that it's science.

We're all sick to the back teeth of the likes of "Emily" Bridges and his mammy, claiming that males don't have an insurmountable sporting advantage and that people who point out that particular fact "haven't followed the science," when, in fact, it's they who are lying about the science.

MrSand · 06/08/2023 07:49

Here's his description of his change of mind. I think quite a lot of people have gone through a similar process.

I consider my views progressive and left wing. When I first thought about this issue — about four or five years ago — I took my cues from other progressives, went along with the left groupthink, and believed that those rejecting TRA belief claims were making a mountain out of a molehill. I supported the idea that people could claim to be whatever they want and live however they want as long as they did not infringe on the rights of others. It was not clear to me then — but is clear to me now — that there are aspects of trans ideology that very much infringe on the rights of others. I was wrong. I stand corrected.

CampervanKween · 06/08/2023 10:25

Yes, 5 years ago people definitely thought I was unhinged for opposing this. Now they see what I was warning about has come to pass. A lack of imagination perhaps or lack of forward thinking? It seemed so obvious to me from the outset, can't understand how people were so initially deluded. But glad to see eventually more and more are speaking out.

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page