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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Not the ally I once was. Sad or liberated?

77 replies

Lwrenagain · 01/08/2023 06:34

How did you journey into your feelings and beliefs on the great trans issues?
I'd love to hear your thoughts/opinions and stories on how your thoughts all came together because mine have been jumbled for a long time now.

So I've lurked and occasionally joined in with some threads. Sadly my first one I posted was deleted by the AI I believe MN told me.

I've grown up with kids who had gender dysmorphia from VERY young. I've met kids with it at work also, who've not got the stereotype parents raising non binary kids, I'm talking parents who were actually mortified at the start of their child's journey with their identity.

I have 3 trans pals, the TWomen both struggled since childhood with feeling born into the wrong body. The Tman has the usual story around why a woman, possibly undiagnosed asd would want to change, so I'm not sure about gender dysmorphia, I've never asked if I'm honest.

I have always supported the trans community within reason, I'm not blind to dodgy people or things involving children that make my heckles go up.
My last deleted post was actually regarding the vulnerability of trans kids and predators. (Local paedophile started harassing transgirls who were almost delighted for the attention, in a nutshell)

Anyway, I'm chatting to my friend TW, and she has no desire to encroach the spaces of biological women, she's in awe of women, loves and respects us. Appreciates she's not biologically a woman, but feels more at home in her body after surgery to be in a category of woman, even if its prefaced with "trans".
She won't ever demand to use a changing room with women, or children, she'll often use a disabled toilet as she doesn't want to use the women's, unisex toilets work for her, because they are inclusive of everybody.

Anyway I judged the trans community largely on my personal experiences and now I'm struggling with more and more batshit behaviour each day.
Forcing lesbians to date TW. Erm, fuck off. Very obviously intact males dressing in women's clothes wanting access to changing areas, no. Piss off, my friends who've had the surgery won't even go into these spaces, wtf is wrong with these people? There is no compromise.
We can support people to dress as they wish, tbh if Barry wants me to call him Brenda it's no skin off my nose, but he doesn't need to be left alone with women in a changing area, just no.

My TW friends are devastated that they're being lumped into the category of these (my friends words, not mine) "creepy chancers" and this behaviour is really going to bite transfolk with only good intentions to live their lives with peace, in a body they can relate too, in the arse.

I feel angry, not just because of the way women are being treated. In equal measure, the way there is going to be a huge amount of violence and anger directed to people with legitimate reasons for living in a body different to their bio sex, because predatory males have jumped on a bandwagon to allow access to women, vulnerable ones especially and even more vulnerable, kids.

I hate the lack of compromise from this new wave of trans activism, society needs to adjust to this and provisions made to ensure safety and comfort of everyone, not a single group. Just calm your new tits and accept you can be accepted and live how you wish, but let everyone else catch up, let us build more unisex bathrooms, let us sort out specialist prison wings, sport divisions etc, because it's women taking the knock each time. Not good enough for them though is it? Which makes me think they don't want to be included, they're simply just wanting access to our spaces. Why? Why is that something you feel entitled too? At least meet us half way, ffs.

I've supported in work (back in the old days) men who crossed dressed as it was known back in the day, all struggling to accept sexuality and with intellectual disabilities. But even then, these men had zero interest in using the bathrooms of women etc, it's just terribly sad at a time we could be inclusive of men wearing what they liked, women wearing what they wanted, for sexuality to be as open as free without judgement, society finds a way to reject that, give uncertain people life altering surgery and still quash the rights and safety of women.

OP posts:
southbiscay · 01/08/2023 06:59

I'm not so sure at all that the crossdressers of 20 years ago had no desire to use women's facilities - it was just that they were likely to get thrown out and humiliated if they did. Now of course they are stunning and brave and it's actual women who will get thrown out for complaining about a man in a frock in the ladies.

I do understand why men who have gone all in with surgery are pissed off with those who don't make the same investment and who, pardon the pun, have totally queered their pitch. But that's where we are and the only way out is to say no males at all in women's sex segregated spaces.

Lwrenagain · 01/08/2023 07:15

In all honesty the only cross dressers I've known did have quite profound learning disabilities, so it's not as though I have a huge frame of reference.

Yeah, I'm now only going to advocate for 3 spaces, m/f/u.
I'm lucky that my lovely friends wouldn't attack me for this opinion either and would agree, but if I spoke out to people I know who don't have trans friends, I'd be on the boundary of transphobic for them I'm sure.

I'm not of course, I just want women and children to be safe. I want everyone to be safe, naturally, nobody normal wants otherwise. But lasses and kiddos are need protecting first and foremost.

OP posts:
TheirEminence · 01/08/2023 07:17

Thank you for sharing your perspective, OP. I think I understand where you are coming from but I also wonder if we can ever, as you say, “be inclusive of men wearing what they liked, women wearing what they wanted, for sexuality to be as open as free without judgement” - some social norms, even if they might be slightly unfair or restrictive on some people, exist for good reasons.

For example, I think I can tell the difference between a femininely dressed man and a cross-dresser. While I have zero problems with the former, these days I am wary of men who cross-dress. There is one I often see around where I live, middle-aged, dressed in what might be described as a gothic Lolita outfit. To me, he (I do not know how this person identifies, hence using sex-based pronouns) is doing this to send a political message that I profoundly disagree with. I also find him creepy. Does that make me unacceptably intolerant? I’ve never approached this person and try to ignore him as I fear that any reaction would give him gratification.

Maaate · 01/08/2023 07:18

My TW friends are devastated that they're being lumped into the category of these (my friends words, not mine) "creepy chancers" and this behaviour is really going to bite transfolk with only good intentions to live their lives with peace, in a body they can relate too, in the arse.My TW friends are devastated that they're being lumped into the category of these (my friends words, not mine) "creepy chancers" and this behaviour is really going to bite transfolk with only good intentions to live their lives with peace, in a body they can relate too, in the arse.

What are they doing about this?

Boiledbeetle · 01/08/2023 07:19

She won't ever demand to use a changing room with women, or children, she'll often use a disabled toilet as she doesn't want to use the women's, unisex toilets work for her, because they are inclusive of everybody.

I just want to say this as I see this a lot...

Disabled toilets

The disabled toilet is not a bonus toilet for those who don't want to use the correct facilities.

Even your TW friends who won't use the women's single sex spaces don't completely get it. Unless you missed out they actually are disabled as well and have a need of the disabled facilities they are still using a space that isn't for them.

Your understanding TW friends need to use the gents facilities or find unisex facilities.

bellinisurge · 01/08/2023 07:30

I have MS. Please ask your friends not to use facilities built for people with disabilities. We're just out of disability pride month. Some awareness of how difficult it is for people with disabilities to interact with the world wouldn't hurt.

CaramelMac · 01/08/2023 07:35

The first time I came across a Trans woman as opposed to a cross dresser was over 20 years ago at work and my first reaction was “I’m not willing to pretend under any circumstances that a man is a woman” because I could see where that would lead, and I thought any sensible person would think the same, but I underestimated the whole “be kind” thing and to this day I’m still shocked that so many organisations have been captured.

Slothtoes · 01/08/2023 07:36

I just want women and children to be safe. I want everyone to be safe, naturally, nobody normal wants otherwise. But lasses and kiddos are need protecting first and foremost.

100% all day, everyday and forever and anyone who expects anyone to say anything otherwise is a full on creepy chancer. Massive red flag.

Also thank you for ‘Calm your new tits’ that is beautiful Grin

BonfireLady · 01/08/2023 07:38

Sounds like you've been on quite a journey so far OP. Me too!

How did you journey into your feelings and beliefs on the great trans issues?

  1. Mid-2022: very inclusive. If someone had asked me if TWAW, I would have said yes. I had briefly seen a protest about self-ID in the news and my only passing thought was that there seemed to be a lot of anger when surely people know who they are. I can't imagine I'd have had an issue with transwomen in toilets - I'd have thought they just wanted to pee. I was aware of the JKR tweet/essay, couldn't understand why it was transphobic (I did look out of curiosity) but equally, couldn't understand why she was so worked up about the word "woman". TBH I had never really given any of it any thought and figured the most important thing was to be kind, especially as trans people are/were so few in number and deserve to live a happy life.
  2. Slightly out of chronology, early 2022: my daughter told me she thought she was trans. I said "OK". I figured it was the same as being a lesbian.
  3. Mid-late 2022: our daughter asked us for puberty blockers.... We looked at the NHS website... and so began my research. We said no to her. I focused mainly on sources that were recognised by public bodies (e.g. Cass Review) but also widened the net (e.g. Transgender Trend, newspaper articles - mostly just the Guardian at this point, talking to LGBT people at work to understand the whole world of being transgender - I still value some of the conversations I've had, all perspectives help)
  4. Late 2022: daughter in hospital multiple times, self-harming and feeling confused about her gender identity. Had to fight really hard to stop her being recorded as "identifying as male" in her medical paperwork. She never did - it took me raising a Subject Access Request for her records and multiple conversations with CAMHS to get this sorted. Had to make the difficult decision to stop her receiving any mental health support until this was sorted because I had begun to realise just how blinkered medical and schools were - as soon as someone mentions feeling that they might be trans, all other general mental health issues become redundant. Initially there was no mention of the (autism- related) bullying that had led my daughter to self-harm in her report. There is now. This was the main issue and it had been swept aside in favour of a focus on gender identity. Updated her EHCP (autism support document in school) to safeguard her in school - managed to get professionally backed advice on the impact of asking her her pronouns included, for example.
  5. Still late 2022: lots and lots of research. Really widening the net now. Eventually realised that JKR had a very good point about the word woman, Glinner wasn't the bigot I thought he was and so on. I even started reading the Mail and Telegraph and watching clips on GB News, after realising that nowhere else would platform the info.
  6. Early 2023: after lurking for a while, started actively participating in discussions on here. Initially difficult as I still felt very agnostic about gender identity i.e. I didn't think I had one but I couldn't explain why I always felt I must be female, so figured there "must" be something to explain it and that perhaps gender identity was real. Learned lots and debated on here lots as I realised I could only support my daughter if I got my head around the whole subject, even if it didn't feel directly relevant e.g. transwidows, Three Letter Acronym etc etc.
  7. Early-mid 2023: started taking action to help others like my daughter. Article published on Transgender Trend about our CAMHS experience, writing to MP multiple times, working in partnership with school on their PHSE materials
  8. Now: firmly decided that I don't believe in gender identity, but I accept that others do. However, I will absolutely not accept the harms done when a) children and vulnerable people don't realise the difference between belief and fact and are supported/encouraged by the medical profession and social media to sterilise themselves and join a pathway of lifelong medical dependency and (often) complications b) boundaries are crossed e.g. women's sports, women's spaces and services (which were created for safety and dignity), transwidows being gaslit. Laws and policies should be based on fact, not belief.
EmpressaurusOfCats · 01/08/2023 07:46

Christine Burns & Press for Change worked hard to erase the terms transsexual, transvestite etc & replace them all with ‘trans’ because they didn’t want the public to differentiate.

If the likes of Stonewall & all the US TRA groups had campaigned for third spaces from the start instead of demanding women’s spaces, things might be very different now.

The most helpful thing your friends can do for actual women is to use men’s spaces.

BonfireLady · 01/08/2023 07:47

Just reading other comments now (cross posted).

@Boiledbeetle , @bellinisurge , I understand your concerns about disabled toilets and I know many share them. I appreciate I don't have direct experience of a physical disability but my view is that anyone who feels unsafe in the toilets for their sex (e.g. autism, gender identity different from sex) should use any single occupancy third space. I can understand why a transwoman would feel uncomfortable in the men's or a bearded transman may feel uncomfortable in the women's. Unfortunately not everyone is tolerant - they may also think that their presence in the toilets that match their sex could make others feel uncomfortable. There aren't enough third spaces but this still feels like the right answer, albeit an imperfect one. We need more.

Lwrenagain · 01/08/2023 07:48

The disabled toilet thing, now I have skin in this game as one of my DC needs to access this toilet and I myself currently have some decent mobility issues, although they're temporary so it's not something on a personal level, with much hope, I'll need to access long term.
But it is often the only bathroom catering unisex. I don't think sending a TW who's had surgery into men's toilets is fair on anyone, it's uncomfortable for everyone, until more unisex toilets are available it's a compromise. I know my DP would be absolutely gutted using the same toilet as a TW, not embarrassed, just sad they've gone to all the effort of painful surgery, hormone treatment etc to still be stood in a toilet full of blokes. It's quite humiliating, degrading and TW deserve protection also.
Especially if the TW is doing everything possible to not upset women by using their spaces.
I think absolutely more bathrooms need building for unisex toilets, but that's why I feel society needs to adjust with the influx of transfolk now.
Whilst you're right, not a bonus toilet for those not using correct facilities, right now, if we can accept their is a lack of correct facilities, it's a compromise.
Also please, whilst not a disability, don't underestimate the genuine shyness and anxiety faced by TW, I think I can tolerate someone with crippling shyness who needs to use a bathroom alone for using the toilet my DS needs or my other disabled family, it's not going to create massive waiting times. But I understand your point, I just feel until we have accepted more people need unisex bathrooms, it's the safest.

What are my Trans pals doing about it?
Fuck all actually. If they speak out too loudly they'll become targets.
At first it was quite exciting for them to see this big inclusive movement where it seemed as though they weren't these one in every few thousand with dysmorphia and it was more common than they realised. I was happy for them. I felt they'd paved the way for younger generations to live authentically without fear. Well hands held up, we were absolutely fucking wrong. It's a movement of confusing children, attention seeking and predators which is backfiring on almost everyone and once it loses its popularity transfolk who want to live peacefully will be vilified as perverts as opposed to perverts who infiltrated a movement of vulnerable people.
So I'm speaking out 😁

@TheirEminence if you find someone creepy, I'd suggest it's your defenses, I had a neighbour once who everyone loved, jolly, useful and helpful, kind to kids and wore a generic uniform of tracksuits and trainers. Nothing remotely unusual about him, universally loved.
Everyone thought I was being a little arsehole with my discomfort around him.
I had every right to feel that way and when the police searched his house he was dismembering stray animals.
Creepy people send out vibes, you don't ignore that feeling pal, doesn't matter if dude is wearing a ballgown to tesco or jeans and a polo shirt, something tells you something is off, you listen.

OP posts:
BonfireLady · 01/08/2023 07:53

Lwrenagain · 01/08/2023 07:48

The disabled toilet thing, now I have skin in this game as one of my DC needs to access this toilet and I myself currently have some decent mobility issues, although they're temporary so it's not something on a personal level, with much hope, I'll need to access long term.
But it is often the only bathroom catering unisex. I don't think sending a TW who's had surgery into men's toilets is fair on anyone, it's uncomfortable for everyone, until more unisex toilets are available it's a compromise. I know my DP would be absolutely gutted using the same toilet as a TW, not embarrassed, just sad they've gone to all the effort of painful surgery, hormone treatment etc to still be stood in a toilet full of blokes. It's quite humiliating, degrading and TW deserve protection also.
Especially if the TW is doing everything possible to not upset women by using their spaces.
I think absolutely more bathrooms need building for unisex toilets, but that's why I feel society needs to adjust with the influx of transfolk now.
Whilst you're right, not a bonus toilet for those not using correct facilities, right now, if we can accept their is a lack of correct facilities, it's a compromise.
Also please, whilst not a disability, don't underestimate the genuine shyness and anxiety faced by TW, I think I can tolerate someone with crippling shyness who needs to use a bathroom alone for using the toilet my DS needs or my other disabled family, it's not going to create massive waiting times. But I understand your point, I just feel until we have accepted more people need unisex bathrooms, it's the safest.

What are my Trans pals doing about it?
Fuck all actually. If they speak out too loudly they'll become targets.
At first it was quite exciting for them to see this big inclusive movement where it seemed as though they weren't these one in every few thousand with dysmorphia and it was more common than they realised. I was happy for them. I felt they'd paved the way for younger generations to live authentically without fear. Well hands held up, we were absolutely fucking wrong. It's a movement of confusing children, attention seeking and predators which is backfiring on almost everyone and once it loses its popularity transfolk who want to live peacefully will be vilified as perverts as opposed to perverts who infiltrated a movement of vulnerable people.
So I'm speaking out 😁

@TheirEminence if you find someone creepy, I'd suggest it's your defenses, I had a neighbour once who everyone loved, jolly, useful and helpful, kind to kids and wore a generic uniform of tracksuits and trainers. Nothing remotely unusual about him, universally loved.
Everyone thought I was being a little arsehole with my discomfort around him.
I had every right to feel that way and when the police searched his house he was dismembering stray animals.
Creepy people send out vibes, you don't ignore that feeling pal, doesn't matter if dude is wearing a ballgown to tesco or jeans and a polo shirt, something tells you something is off, you listen.

Well hands held up, we were absolutely fucking wrong. It's a movement of confusing children, attention seeking and predators which is backfiring on almost everyone and once it loses its popularity transfolk who want to live peacefully will be vilified as perverts as opposed to perverts who infiltrated a movement of vulnerable people.
So I'm speaking out 😁

👍👍👍 hopefully more people will start to do the same.

This is a great post OP. Thank you for starting it.

Lwrenagain · 01/08/2023 07:54

bellinisurge · 01/08/2023 07:30

I have MS. Please ask your friends not to use facilities built for people with disabilities. We're just out of disability pride month. Some awareness of how difficult it is for people with disabilities to interact with the world wouldn't hurt.

MS is an absolute fucker. It runs in my family and I cannot express how badly I'd beat it to death if it was a person. With my bare hands.

I hate, hate, hate you'd have to wait because people use the disabled toilets. It's why we need more. And you should never be queuing, not ever. Nobody with a disability should.

I worked in a old school day centre in my younger days, with people who needed hoisting to be helped to use the bathrooms. These purpose built facilities designed for in excess often of 70 disabled people would have 4 or 5 bathrooms only. I wrote about it to our council to have my concerns completely ignored, but the MP at the time did send me a Christmas card.
Wanker.

OP posts:
Lwrenagain · 01/08/2023 07:59

@BonfireLady wow, that is absolutely shocking. You are amazing dealing with all this. I'm thankful of your reply and honesty! I really hope your things are going better for your DD x

OP posts:
ApocalipstickNow · 01/08/2023 08:02

bellinisurge · 01/08/2023 07:30

I have MS. Please ask your friends not to use facilities built for people with disabilities. We're just out of disability pride month. Some awareness of how difficult it is for people with disabilities to interact with the world wouldn't hurt.

You’d expect everyone to be aware we’ve just had Disability Pride Month given that all the supermarkets and banks have been promoting it, all the mentions in people’s email sigs, all the social media fanfare, all the posters and flag around every city…

Oh, wait, sorry, no- that didn’t happen🙄

WeAreOnTheRoadToNowhere · 01/08/2023 08:12

Many years ago I worked in MH and came across cross dressers, adult babies although they were not called that and, what we would now call, transvestites. These behaviours were common amongst our client group. The 'transvestites' I worked with enjoyed referring to themselves as girls, typically wore frilly socks and tiny skirts and often demonstrated the creepy behaviours we now associate with AGPs
It is the 'nice' transvestites that pushed for the change. Imo the fetish element has always been there
I am kind of friends with 2 gay men who are transvestites. Well, that's what they call themselves. I have no idea re surgery. They are late 50s, use the women's toilet, refer to themselves as girls and wear very revealing clothes. I don't think they are a physical risk to women or girls in any way but are not worried about making females feel uncomfortable and, imo, the fetish element is there

nauticant · 01/08/2023 08:45

I'm with posters above OP. What you've witnessed isn't necessarily a lack of desire to encroach on women and their spaces, but is more likely to be that there were firmer boundaries in the past and the cross-dressers etc knew they had to exercise some self-restraint or there would be conseequences.

One of the most useful things I've learned over the past 7 years is that if you lower boundaries around safeguarding there is no limit to how far some men will push things to take advantage, and how they'll behave.

Skyellaskerry · 01/08/2023 09:00

@ApocalipstickNow I was also unaware of disability pride month

OP my eyes were opened by JKR - reading her essay and wondering what was so wrong with it - and then reading more and more.

ApocalipstickNow · 01/08/2023 09:11

I sometimes think we had reached a point, with the acceptance of LGB people becoming widespread, racism being widely challenged, women being given a voice they hadn’t had before, greater disability rights etc- that the next logical step was acceptance and visibility for trans(sexuals).

I don’t see this as problematic, understanding people are people is a noble and humane thing to do.

Of course, this needed difficult conversations, the delicate balance of rights, actual hard work. So we could have had laws that protected trans people from discrimination in work (with caveats for sex specific job roles), separate wings in sex segregated prisons, additional unisex toilets and changing rooms etc. some of this would be straightforward, some difficult to negotiate, some financially costly (if only a huge trans supporting charity existed, eh?) Difficult, grown up conversations should have been had about treatment, the role of therapy, what appropriate age do we start medical procedures…

But NONE of that happened.

The trans umbrella was widened to include almost anyone, including those who were happy with their sexed bodies and their functions but found opposite sex clothing a turn on. Children going through a fairly standard rejection of sex stereotypes. Abuse and trauma victims. People with ASD. Anyone who wanted access to women and children when naked or vulnerable.

With no checks or balances required.

Then (unsurprisingly) it became attractive for bog standard misogynists who had felt “feminism has gone too far” but had been held to account for their views. Suddenly you could, as a man, demand women shut up, threaten them with violence, act on those threats and receive support!

Not all feminists would have been happy with the first scenario, I accept there has never been a time when this philosophy hasn’t relied on stereotypes and feminism should be able to point this out, but I reckon the majority of us would’ve accepted pronouns if there was an understanding that bio sex was still relevant and transwomen are trans. And we had kept spaces where we do not want men.

But in the rush to celebrate new freedoms for trans people it became a magnet for MRAs and creeps and good luck separating that out now.

ApocalipstickNow · 01/08/2023 09:15

Skyellaskerry · 01/08/2023 09:00

@ApocalipstickNow I was also unaware of disability pride month

OP my eyes were opened by JKR - reading her essay and wondering what was so wrong with it - and then reading more and more.

We didn't even celebrate it at work and we have a significant percentage of children with disabilities!

(in fairness we do nothing about Pride)

It was very quiet on social media although I’ve unfollowed a lot of autism charity accounts.

But my point still stands.

IWillNoLie · 01/08/2023 09:29

I work with disabled families and would stay well clear of anything with ‘Pride’ in the title and discourage promotion of it. Disability pride may start completely separate from Pride, just seeing the success of LBGTQ+ pride and want to emulate it for another group. But if it had any success there would quickly be forced teaming and any separate identity would be subsumed into the promotion of ‘TQ+’ and before you know it ‘no disability without queer’.

Slothtoes · 01/08/2023 09:33

You’re quite right. And I think that’s already happening in some neurodiversity charity circles which is extremely worrying.

IWillNoLie · 01/08/2023 09:38

But it is often the only bathroom catering unisex. I don't think sending a TW who's had surgery into men's toilets is fair on anyone, it's uncomfortable for everyone, until more unisex toilets are available it's a compromise. I know my DP would be absolutely gutted using the same toilet as a TW, not embarrassed, just sad they've gone to all the effort of painful surgery, hormone treatment etc to still be stood in a toilet full of blokes. It's quite humiliating, degrading and TW deserve protection also.

If they accepted they are always and will always be men then why should the men’s be uncomfortable? Men should be more welcoming to other men. What does your DP think surgery does? It doesn’t change their sex. Your DP might be gutted that they have chopped their penis off (95% don’t) but they remain blokes.

As for unisex; we see where they come from - relabelling the women’s toilets, reducing provision for women while men keep theirs (because ‘urinals’ though really because men who make the decision don’t want to share).

Tinysoxx · 01/08/2023 09:44

BonfireLady · 01/08/2023 07:47

Just reading other comments now (cross posted).

@Boiledbeetle , @bellinisurge , I understand your concerns about disabled toilets and I know many share them. I appreciate I don't have direct experience of a physical disability but my view is that anyone who feels unsafe in the toilets for their sex (e.g. autism, gender identity different from sex) should use any single occupancy third space. I can understand why a transwoman would feel uncomfortable in the men's or a bearded transman may feel uncomfortable in the women's. Unfortunately not everyone is tolerant - they may also think that their presence in the toilets that match their sex could make others feel uncomfortable. There aren't enough third spaces but this still feels like the right answer, albeit an imperfect one. We need more.

And the problem with the increase in third spaces means that people like my disabled Dd who may collapse (in her case epilepsy) are excluded. At school she was not to use the disabled toilets, as she would not be visible if she collapsed. The girls toilets (with door gaps) meant she was safe. Unisex toilets, like those in the Old Vic theatre are unsafe, as the doors go right down to the floor.

There’s ‘feeling unsafe’ by not being in the toilets you feel you want to most fit in to by chosen gender versus actually being medically unsafe.