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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

George Orwell's wife

80 replies

ArabeIIaScott · 31/07/2023 12:05

Article by the author of a new book on Orwell's wife, out in August. Wifedom: Mrs Orwell’s Invisible Life by Anna Funder.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/jul/30/my-hunt-for-eileen-george-orwell-erased-wife-anna-funder

'No character can come to life without a name. But from a wife, which is a job description, all can be stolen.'

'the methods of omission ... fascinated me. When women can’t be left out, they are doubted, trivialised, or reduced to footnotes in eight-point type. Other times, chronology is manipulated to conceal. But the most insidious way the actions of women are omitted is by using the passive voice.'

'We think we’ve come a long way in 80 years, but statistically, there is an irrefutable, globally intransigent heterosexual norm that pervades across ethnicity, colour and class. Nowhere in the world do women have the same power, freedom, leisure or money as their male partners. Every society is built on the unpaid or underpaid work of women, an estimated $10.9tn (£8.5tn) of it a year. But to pay would be to redistribute wealth and power in a way that might defund and defang patriarchy.'

Looking for Eileen: how George Orwell wrote his wife out of his story

Anna Funder explains how the search for Eileen O’Shaughnessy, a compelling figure strangely absent from Orwell’s writing, illuminated her own life

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/jul/30/my-hunt-for-eileen-george-orwell-erased-wife-anna-funder

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BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 01/08/2023 21:50

Homo facilius. Yes - very well explained.

MaybeDoctor · 01/08/2023 21:50

But if the Orwells had had a bit more money and the privy had been cleaned by a housemaid, then no one would think to mention it at all...

Perhaps this is why there is a trope of great artists living in a degree of squalor? Because at some point you have to decide not to wash that cup, file away those papers or tidy up your workroom/office/studio if anything is going to get painted, sculpted or written.

ArabeIIaScott · 01/08/2023 22:15

MaybeDoctor · 01/08/2023 21:50

But if the Orwells had had a bit more money and the privy had been cleaned by a housemaid, then no one would think to mention it at all...

Perhaps this is why there is a trope of great artists living in a degree of squalor? Because at some point you have to decide not to wash that cup, file away those papers or tidy up your workroom/office/studio if anything is going to get painted, sculpted or written.

This is quite an interesting book (I got halfway through before getting distracted) on the trope of bohemian artists' lives. It makes the point quite well that most artists living in 'squalor' had come from privileged backgrounds and chose to reject their backgrounds; yet many still had cushions of wealth and support to fall back on.

http://www.virginianicholson.co.uk/among-bohemians

Among the Bohemians — Virginia Nicholson

http://www.virginianicholson.co.uk/among-bohemians

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ilovesooty · 01/08/2023 22:22

BlackRookInRainyWeather · 01/08/2023 15:04

Some amazing posting here. I was struck reading Animal Farm with a class recently that the female characters are vain (Molly the horse) or lazy (the cat)… or just unnamed like all the cows and sheep. I had a discussion with the pupils about it and they felt it was pretty damning of Orwell.

There's Clover as well.

NitroNine · 02/08/2023 15:02

Isn’t the “squalor” often effectively a form of performance art for lots of them too? Used to signal “artistic genius at work” & fact they cannot be expected to conform to social expectations/niceties; whether that’s in terms of clothing, manners, or sex & relationships.

MaybeDoctor · 02/08/2023 15:17

I don’t think of it quite so cynically. To my mind, creativity takes time and focus. Whereas even surface tidying-up is never-ending and still has to be done even if you did it last week. So I guess some people do decide to let it go and just focus on their work or creative endeavours.

Waitwhat23 · 02/08/2023 15:18

MaybeDoctor · 31/07/2023 14:50

A favourite poem by Lynn Peters:

Why Dorothy Wordsworth is not as famous as her brother
"I wandered lonely as a...
They're in the top drawer, William,
Under your socks -
I wandered lonely as a -
No not that drawer, the top one.
I wandered by myself -
Well wear the ones you can find.
No, don't get overwrought my dear, I'm coming.

"I wandered lonely as a -
Lonely as a cloud when -
Soft-boiled egg, yes my dear,
As usual, three minutes -
As a cloud which floats -
Look, I said I'll cook it,
Just hold on will you -
All right, I'm coming.

"One day I was out for a walk
When I saw this flock -
It can't be too hard, it had three minutes.
Well put some butter in it. -
This host of golden daffodils
As I was out for a stroll one -
"Oh you fancy a stroll, do you?
Yes all right, William, I'm coming.
It's on the peg. Under your hat.
I'll bring my pad, shall I, in case
You want to jot something down?"

'I wandered lonely' is one of my favourite poems and I'd never seen this poem before - it's fab. Thanks for sharing

Waitwhat23 · 02/08/2023 15:21

Fascinating thread - will definitely look at getting the book.

ArabeIIaScott · 02/08/2023 15:26

NitroNine · 02/08/2023 15:02

Isn’t the “squalor” often effectively a form of performance art for lots of them too? Used to signal “artistic genius at work” & fact they cannot be expected to conform to social expectations/niceties; whether that’s in terms of clothing, manners, or sex & relationships.

<cough> sometimes it's just absent mindedness.

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aloris · 02/08/2023 16:20

TressiliansStone · 01/08/2023 11:54

There was a brilliant MN thread some years ago about the Facilitated Man, who is able to fulfil his potential at work or in sport or art because he has a cloud of service-humans in the home and workplace removing most of the shitwork from his path so that he can spend his energy on being brilliant.

The service-humans don't have to be female although <newsflash> they often are. And women typically don't have that cloud of service-humans.

It crystallised my thinking like nothing else has.

This pattern is replicated in any situation where a person has other people to act as service-humans. So now I use the concept as a really useful analytical tool: who in any given context has service-humans? To what extent? Who does not have service-humans? Who is a service-human in this context?

(I was initially going to cast this in terms of higher-status people having lower-status people as their service-humans, which is generally the case. But actually there are some occasions where there was no difference in status between the parties beforehand. However there are rather more occasions where the Facilitated Person tries to obfuscate status and to convince the service-humans of the nobility of service or wifedom – purely through fear their own cushy number might cease!)

This is such a good comment I just wanted to immortalize it for myself.

FrivolousTreeDuck · 02/08/2023 19:20

BlackRookInRainyWeather · 01/08/2023 15:04

Some amazing posting here. I was struck reading Animal Farm with a class recently that the female characters are vain (Molly the horse) or lazy (the cat)… or just unnamed like all the cows and sheep. I had a discussion with the pupils about it and they felt it was pretty damning of Orwell.

You're forgetting Clover, another horse and close friend of Boxer.

Andante57 · 02/08/2023 20:09

I think there is (or was) a mystery as to what happened to all Orwell’s money.
From the Guardian:
By 1980, when she died, these titles alone had sold 30 million. Yet Sonia died in a grotty bedsit, without money to pay for her own funeral.

NitroNine · 05/08/2023 15:52

@Andante57
Orwell set things up so his money went into a Trust, from which Sonia drew a widow’s pension. She didn’t manage to get control of the copyright from the account who’d control of the Trust - & who’d been keeping her in poverty - until a fortnight before her death, when it passed to Orwell’s adopted son. For obvious reasons nobody’s actually said so, but Occam’s Razor suggests the account trousered the cash for himself & cooked the books to cover it up.

Andante57 · 05/08/2023 16:06

NitroNine that’s interesting. Was the accountant ever taken to task about it?

Phineyj · 05/08/2023 16:43

I participated in the Facilitated Man thread. It was very interesting. Also infuriating.

I read a biography of Dorothy Hodgson once. Her husband was some kind of big cheese in the colonial services so she could only do her groundbreaking crystallography work because her sister moved in to take care of the kids. Also the lab she used was down a step so all that delicate work could have been destroyed in an instant. What a metaphor!

NitroNine · 05/08/2023 17:37

I don’t think so Andante - I remembered the coverage at the time her biography was published & presumably there was enough evidence to get control of things back to the family, but the accountant was smart enough to hide any creative accounting. If they did any, which they may not have, it’s just the obvious conclusion to draw!

Andante57 · 05/08/2023 17:39

That’s interesting Nitronine. Presumably his son then owned the copyright.

Indigotree · 05/08/2023 17:47

As someone brought up to look after her brothers, I've often looked with interest at accounts of highly talented sisters of famous brothers.
Gwen John is one.
Yeats' sisters featured in the Guardian recently too.

SapatSea · 05/08/2023 19:55

@PriOn1 a book from Julia's POV is coming out soon
https://www.harpercollins.com/products/julia-sandra-newman?variant=41007957934114

Gilmorehill · 05/08/2023 19:57

TressiliansStone · 31/07/2023 13:54

Wow. That's quite a read.

It also comes as no surprise.

Or rather, the surprise is that Funder managed to pin down enough surviving information about Eileen for us to know all of these things she did.

I do a great deal of family and microhistory, and all of these techniques of simply writing women out of existence are very, very familiar to me. The passive voice indeed! "It was done. It happened." But by whom was it done? Who made it happen?

I have to say, Scottish records and reporting are significantly better than English in this respect. At least women keep their own names after marriage, so that Margaret McPherson becomes known as Margaret McPherson or Brown. Whereas if she marries and moves to England, she becomes known merely as Mrs William Brown. It's quite common in English records to find a Mrs William Brown whose recorded age is more variable even than usual, and only discover later that this is because she is an entirely different woman from the first Mrs William Brown, and indeed the second Mrs William Brown, and is in fact the third wife of William Brown: her own name still unknown.

Interesting that Scottish records are better but Scottish women don’t keep their names when they marry. My Scottish mum was appalled when I kept mine!

ArabeIIaScott · 05/08/2023 20:26

Gilmorehill · 05/08/2023 19:57

Interesting that Scottish records are better but Scottish women don’t keep their names when they marry. My Scottish mum was appalled when I kept mine!

Traditionally they did, though. You can see it on old gravestones. Often they had odd 'feminised' male names, though - Williamina, Edwardina, etc.

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ArabeIIaScott · 05/08/2023 20:29

'In Scotland, an independent country until 1707 (and unlike England, which was subject to the doctrine of “coverture”), it was normal for a woman to keep her maiden name (patronymic) after marriage. During the nineteenth century, especially in Victorian times, women tended to become known by their married name (Mrs + husband’s name) in everyday life. But the practice of recording their names on tombstones has remained to the present day, giving a woman’s original name, without any other formula (illustrated from a cemetery in Edinburgh).'

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Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 05/08/2023 21:05

Indigotree · 05/08/2023 17:47

As someone brought up to look after her brothers, I've often looked with interest at accounts of highly talented sisters of famous brothers.
Gwen John is one.
Yeats' sisters featured in the Guardian recently too.

It is interesting. Comprehensive list of famous siblings here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sibling_pairs

Here are some where the sisters seem to have equalled or exceeded their brothers' success/fame.

The Brontes - although Branwell is only famous because of his sisters.
Christina Rossetti.
Shirley Maclaine.
Karen Carpenter.
Joan Cusack.
Jane Fonda.
Vanessa Redgrave.
Lily Allen.

Fanny Mendelssohn, though ...

List of sibling pairs - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sibling_pairs

TressiliansStone · 05/08/2023 22:23

Very typical newspaper announcement from 1835:
^DIED.
On the 20th Jan., at 83, Great King-street, Edinburgh, Mrs. Agatha Boog, relict of the late William Laughton, Esq., of London.^

Agatha's maiden name was Boog. When she married she changed from Miss Agatha Boog to Mrs Agatha Boog. During the life of her husband, she may also have been known as Mrs Laughton in many contexts. Different people followed different conventions.

Interestingly, this notice appeared in a London newspaper. However it was probably put in by the Edinburgh family or copied verbatim from an Edinburgh paper by the London paper (copying was common).

I have read literally thousands of original C18th, C19th & early C20th Scottish documents referring to women (newspaper articles, wills, tax records...). The form "Agatha Boog or Laughton" is at least as common as dropping the maiden name for much of this period.

George Orwell's wife
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