Absolutely disgusting that this was allowed to happen

[forgotmyusername1]

Was transitioned at 13. I just can't understand how doctors were allowed to do this to confused children.

The detransitioners are now coming out the woodwork and I am sure many of them will sue and they deserve compensation for what has been done to them. Children being sterilised and having their boobs cut off and penises inverted - it sounds like something from a medieval horror movie. What happened to the hippocratic oath of do no harm?

I hope those who have done medical experiments on these children are scared of what is coming. And it is coming.

Where is this information you speak of?

It’s not an “article” btw, it’s a peer reviewed systematic review of 27 scientific published studies. So the data is more reliable and to a higher standard than what you would find in a mainstream “article”.

The 2021 systematic review was still being reported as the most current peer reviewed scientific data on sites with an update date in 2023 (this year).

GIDS did no follow-up of children who stopped attending, or those who were discharged or referred on to endocrinologists. There was little/no audit or research, despite having their own research department within GIDS. As a senior NHS nurse for the last 20 years of my career, I was expected to do continual caseload audits and participate in research on top of all my clinical commitments, as was every other senior nurse I ever knew. It was the most shocking aspect of Hannah Barnes’ book for me. The main/only gender service in the UK did not publish any long-term data on their experimental treatment of often damaged and vulnerable children. It’s almost as unfathomable as them hanging on to their service director Polly Carmichael, despite the various critical reviews and reports into her empire-building.

We don’t know how many of the Tavistock GIDS patients detransitioned because they didn’t bother to ask/find out.

I believe it’s been observed that regret tends to occur at around ten years after transition.

So any review of recent transitioners will not capture the full picture of which patients will eventually regret as they are not ten years post transition.

And any older studies will not reflect the current huge surge in transitioners and the startling change in the composition of that cohort.

Most studies don’t follow up patients rigorously for any length of time. A large number only record regret in patients still attending the clinic. Thus the vast majority of those who detransition are excluded from their figures.

And it’s well known that many of the medics pushing the trans agenda are themselves transitioned. It’s much the same as a group of anorexia patients advising on medication and surgery that assists people with weight loss.

Nobody should be cutting off teenage girls’ breasts and none of them should be medicated. There is a medical scandal unfolding that is going to rock the medical profession worse than lobotomy and thalidomide combined.

Unless the cohort who has been transitioning in the last 5-10 years has been followed up for 10 years no one has any idea what the true regret rate is. Even many of the original Dutch cohort has been lost to follow up. 1% just represents the number of patients still available to study, not the entire cohorts.

It’s also questionable what regret means, because of the sunk cost fallacy. And Peggy Cohen-Kettinis has come up with a way of measuring regret in gender care. She has a conflict of interest because she started the whole thing, so finding people who regret their treatment would undo all of her work.

The regret rate is unknown.

Ok, all great points, any links to anything peer reviewed from a scientific journal to verify?

@SwitchDiver yes, I agree "article" was incorrect. It's a science paper.

Unfortunately most of the science papers in relation to detransitioners have been peer-reviewed by those in the medical profession who support gender identity as a fact. Many papers will also have been written and researched under the auspices of WPATH. Add to that that much of the research has been funded by the pharmaceutical companies that make money from the lifelong patients who are given hormones and surgeries to "affirm their gender". Any paper which uses the language of gender identity rather than biological facts should be viewed with caution.
Genspect and others have been calling out the huge chasm in the availability of empirical research in transition and detransition. The majority of evidence has been found to be expert evidence (i.e. opinion), which has the lowest value in the medical profession. Additionally, surveys have been found to have flawed methodologies.

You do not go to a doctor and they immediately give you medication like testosterone or hormone blockers.

oh good lord, where have you been? There are numerous accounts of children being given medication after just one hours worth of talking.

Helen Webberley doesn't even meet them. She does it by email. Her husband prescribed medication after a 10 minute Skype.

And i'm assuming this account is from America where it's far worse.

The trans lobby are as much to blame as the medical community IMHO, although of course the latter should be held to professional standards.

It's all very well to say they should suggest therapy but look at the massive resistance to this and the naming and shaming of anyone who dares not to affirm the validity of transfolk. I feel like wider society has had a big part to play in this.

1% just represents the number of patients still available to study, not the entire cohorts.
Sorry, but it seems to me that you haven’t even looked at the systematic review or even glanced at the 27 studies it analysed. First you said none of the studies were from the past 5-10yrs when in fact 9 were. Now you’re saying that the 1% is the “number of patients still available to study not the whole cohort” which is also incorrect as the 1% is the number of patients with regret (77) out of the total of 7,928 patients.

Unless the cohort who has been transitioning in the last 5-10 years has been followed up for 10 years no one has any idea what the true regret rate is.

That is a future regret rate, not a true regret rate.
We won’t know the regret rate for those transitioning now/very recently, I get that. But we do know the regret rate for those that did transition in the past. That is a known %. It is always going to be the case we won’t know future regret of current transitioners. Just like we don’t know the parental regret rate of current pregnant women! This not knowing the future, doesn’t mean something is a complete unknown when we have people who have transitioned (or have had kids) in the past and we can ask them about regret.

Great, if it’s been validated by a scientific review,..got any links to back up these funding conflicts of interest and redactions due to flawed methodologies?

GIDS was overwhelmed with referrals, leaping from a few hundred mainly boys to thousands of mainly girls in just a few years. They didn’t have the resources to provide the years of talking therapies that former patients had, and didn’t seem to question the sudden change in the type of referrals they were getting. It was like a production line, with clinicians expected to make a diagnosis within 3 sessions, some had only 2 sessions before referral for blockers/cross-sex hormones.

Time to Think by Hannah Barnes thoroughly dissects the ethos and practice of the service. It’s easy to read and totally absorbing. I’d recommend it to anyone, gender critical or trans ally.

The Bustos systematic review you linked is specific to regret rate from surgery. It does not look at regret from puberty blockers or cross sex hormones alone. You are only able to determine 1% of the patients but within that number are patients who were lost to follow up. Even within the Bustos review, there are still high rates of problems that aren’t reported as regret, such as inability to orgasm.

There are no data on the regret rate or medical treatments in total. So the regret rate is unknown. Show me the data of 12-18 year old girls but on testosterone that shows a regret rate of 1%.

Clue: it doesn’t exist.

I’ll check back tomorrow. Genuinely interested in this additional information hinted at. Presuming it was published somewhere?

Yes it is a systematic review of 27 studies regarding regret from GAS.

I feel like youve jumped the tracks. We were not discussing regret amongst 12-18yr old girls on puberty blockers- they aren’t even a subset of transitioners. You just finished pointing out that regret manifests 5-10yrs after transition, so how are 12-18yr olds even going to be 5-10yrs post transition!

You’ve not responded to me, you’ve jumped tracks to a completely new topic.

there are still high rates of problems that aren’t reported as regret, such as inability to orgasm.

If you’d never had an orgasm and now never will, can you regret what you’ve never known? Or, more relevantly, can someone who’s never orgasmed truly give consent to be potentially rendered anorgasmic for the rest of their life?

I'm sure many of them will sue and they deserve compensation for what's been done to them.

I completely agree with you. But they probably won't get it.

How old is the author now?

👍👍 Genuinely interested in your views on why there are so few science papers that don't have a bias towards gender affirming care.

Looking forward to you checking back tomorrow and sharing your thoughts on that. It's really great to be having the debate!

No I’m not. You wrote, just a few posts ago:

Detransitioners have been around as long as transitioning has been around. Studies show that around 1% regret transitioning and then detransition. There is no human decision where 0% of people experience regret about it.

And then you used a systemic review of surgery to prove your point.

The discussion prior to your post was about regret overall. Not just surgery. That means it needs to be considered what the regret rate might be from puberty blockers, cross sex hormones without even getting to surgery.

The answer is: it is unknown.

And if it’s unknown, you can’t consent anyone of possible outcomes, particularly children.

Excellent recommendation. Always interesting to see how swiftly threads about the scandal of children who've been gaslit into life altering, fertility removing drugs and surgery get derailed into all sorts of discussions.

I always wonder why? not really

We could have saved a lot of back and forth if you’d said that you’re looking at oranges to my apples from the start instead of leading with “the old 1% lie” and then posting similar strange comments that didn’t accurately reflect the systematic review or the type of detransitioners I was referring to. As you comfirmed, the thread had by the time I posted moved on to talking about regret for surgical procedures. So it’s odd to think I would have time warped backwards to the oddly specific 12-18yr old girls on puberty blockers you were envisioning.

So the 1% wasn’t an “old lie” for the GAS detransitioners I was posting about, and you’re right about your 12-18yr old girls on puberty blockers as well. So let’s leave it at that, as we were talking past one another.

(btw, the review doesn’t list inability to orgasm as a non regret issue…it lists lack of clitoris sensation as one of the reasons for regret so it’s included in the 1%. )

Me too. Favourite saying of mine is
“Minds are like parachutes, they work best when they are open”

It’s hard to find unbiased information and I’m open to anything published by any reputable source.

We could have saved a lot of back and forth if you’d said that you’re looking at oranges to my apples from the start instead of leading with “the old 1% lie”

It was you that did this. The discussion was about regret. General regret. You posted about surgical regret. I posted flaws about flaws in the review of surgical regret before coming back to point out that surgical regret wasn’t even the focus of the discussion.

As you comfirmed, the thread had by the time I posted moved on to talking about regret for surgical procedures

It was you that switched the focus to surgical regret by posting Bustos.

So it’s odd to think I would have time warped backwards to the oddly specific 12-18yr old girls on puberty blockers you were envisioning.

I pointed out that your definition of regret was only about surgery only, and didn’t, for example, include teenage girls who had been put on testosterone. I chose teenage girls placed on testosterone (not puberty blockers, your lack of comprehension is showing) as an example of a completely understudied cohort of which we know nothing.

So the 1% wasn’t an “old lie” for the GAS detransitioners I was posting about, and you’re right about your 12-18yr old girls on puberty blockers as well. So let’s leave it at that, as we were talking past one another

It is still a lie even if you just focus on regret from surgery, because when you look at the data there are patients lost to follow up who are not included in the final number.

The regret rate from any medical treatments is unknown.

If anyone hasn't read the CASS report from the Tavistock, do go and find it. Basically when you read it, and I haven't finished it all yet, it's saying the failure of the doctors to question young people harmed them. They weren't supported with enough mental health support, no one said no, no one said wait. And the aftercare was also not there.

I think the scandal is more in terms of children being allowed to transition when they really do not have the capacity to consent to it. The age for medical consent needs to be carefully considered.

Also, the key issue isn't so much the percentage that regret. Rather, we need to know (1) how many would have naturally recovered from gender dysphoria, and (2) what are the long term outcomes like, for people that don't recover, but live with gender dysphoria without transitioning.

If you transition two kids, and they don't regret it, that doesn't necessarily make it a success story. What if one of them would have soon recovered from gender dysphoria?

Puberty “cures” most cases of childhood gender dysphoria.

The Tavistock GIDS practice was to block puberty, then give cross-sex hormones to bodies that aren’t set up for them.