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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"What Is A Woman" by Richard Dawkins - in the the New Statesman!!

111 replies

Qbishy · 27/07/2023 14:18

Wow, I can't imagine the New Statesman, of all mags, commissioning this a year ago...

Why biological sex matters - New Statesman

Why biological sex matters

Some argue that lived experience and personal choice trump biology – but they are wrong.

https://www.newstatesman.com/ideas/2023/07/biological-sex-binary-debate-richard-dawkins

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Qbishy · 28/07/2023 13:58

JustSpeculation · 28/07/2023 13:45

You can't have a meaningful dialogue. They want precisely this. Not to have a dialogue. That's the point.

Exacltly. #nodebate, and all that.

Luckily, thanks to all the terven, those days are over!

OP posts:
Froodwithatowel · 28/07/2023 14:01

JustSpeculation · 28/07/2023 13:45

You can't have a meaningful dialogue. They want precisely this. Not to have a dialogue. That's the point.

If you look at it in the wider terms of psychology of toxic and abusive relationships, Lundy Bancroft's 'why does he do that' and Issendai's blog on toxic personalities and relationship dynamics, even the Chump Lady covers it well in her famous blog, this is a very, very well known characteristic behaviour often seen a perpetrator of abuse.

A reasonable person will spend years trying to negotiate, explain, discuss, lay out the evidence, because the belief is that if the other party just understood, then a reasonable works-for-all solution can be found. They lavish endless amounts of thought and mental energy on trying to better understand their very difficult relative/ex and what motivates them, without realising that all this effort is about:

  • the one causing all the crisis enjoying further being the constant centre of attention and headspace and focus and feeding off this

  • enjoying the delay of the unhappy party ever getting round to escaping or putting down barriers because another conversation or another strategy or another read book with ideas might yet help sort this out reasonably, and this spares the abusive party having to lose their victim or do anything uncomfortable like changing or coping without their supply (see cake. having cake, eating cake, all the cake.) If she looks like losing the will to continue, they often throw out another round of burble and wild ideas for her to waste a bit more time unpacking while they use her AND crack on with their own plans and need meeting.

  • there is no chance ever of having a reasonable conversation or outcome unless there are two parties with equal capacity for reasonability.

Freedom Programme. Strong boundaries. LC to NC. The relationships board have reams and reams on this.

Local authorities will also tell you about service users who tie up years of staff time and energy and money using their complaints system (often they have multiple running at the same time) as another means of endless attention and drama and engagement to no good purpose. Often multiple phonecalls and multiple huge emails a day, scattergun points, often hard to make sense of or not logical or connected, all of which demanding intensive answers. One service user with these behavioural challenges getting their needs met this way can cost several staff their careers in going off with stress or burn out. And the system has not yet developed the boundaries to identify an unreasonable person to be able to say no. No more. Not playing. Go and meet your needs through some other idiot.

puffyisgood · 28/07/2023 14:12

the TRA piece couldn't have been chosen better if it had been deliberately picked to illustrate the mindless incoherence and evasiveness of that 'school of thought'.

JustSpeculation · 28/07/2023 14:15

@Froodwithatowel

No more. Not playing. Go and meet your needs through some other idiot.

I hadn't thought of looking at it from this perspective. Thank you. I have noticed that the gaslighting a pomo approach facilitates is really useful in establishing control by keeping others off balance. Food for thought. Thanks again.

SinnerBoy · 28/07/2023 15:04

*JustSpeculation · Today 13:45

You can't have a meaningful dialogue. They want precisely this. Not to have a dialogue. That's the point.

Yes, I get that. They've found that they can't have "no debate" and have gone for the next option of waffle, lies and irrelevant points.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 28/07/2023 16:56

The King James version was mostly nicked from Tyndale (1535) and Wycliffe (1388).

Wycliffe: And God made of nouyt a man to his ymage and liknesse; God made of nouyt a man, to the ymage of God; God made of nouyt hem, male and female.

Tyndale: And God created man after hys lycknesse after the lycknesse of god created he him: male and female created he them.

Just a little bit before 18th century America.

PikesPeaked · 28/07/2023 19:21

And Tyndale and Wycliffe 'nicked' it from an even earlier source: the Torah.

וַיִּבְרָ֨א אֱלֹהִ֤ים ׀ אֶת־הָֽאָדָם֙ בְּצַלְמֹ֔ו בְּצֶ֥לֶם אֱלֹהִ֖ים בָּרָ֣א אֹתֹ֑ו זָכָ֥ר וּנְקֵבָ֖ה בָּרָ֥א אֹתָֽם׃

I don't know whether that displays properly for everyone, but the over 2000 years old Hebrew of the Torah is closer to modern Hebrew than the KJV English is to modern English.

And God created mankind in His image. In God's image He created him. Male and female He created them.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was an even earlier text, Hammurabi perhaps, acknowledging the existence of the two sexes.

BTW, there is no neuter pronoun in Hebrew. That 'him' could equally be 'it'. It refers to all of mankind, not specifically Adam.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/07/2023 13:24

But it's about straight people coming out as gay, or vice versa. It doesn't tell you anything about trans people.

When you read the actual data, it includes mainly people moving in and out of "prefer not to say". Hardly a ringing endorsement that their sexual orientation has changed.

https://read.dukeupress.edu/demography/article/60/3/659/373516/Sexual-Orientation-Identity-Mobility-in-the-United

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/07/2023 13:26

I think at one point they say that less than 1% of people changed the sex of their partner, so it really isn't what it's claiming to be.

fromorbit · 31/07/2023 02:15

Dawkins has had Helen Joyce on his popular podcast.

Great conversation Joyce gets to explain just how deep the rabbit hole goes to Dawkins.

Getting more of the atheist skeptic crowd peaked via Dawkins is useful. Obviously many will continue to choose misogyny over admitting biology is real. [Always a problem in that crowd.]

The ones that will switch sides though are way more rational and useful.

"Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality" - My conversation with Helen Joyce

Here is my conversation with Helen J on 'The Poetry of Reality', tackling the influence of gender ideology on society, the ideological lens, and its implicat...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu72Lu5FqE4

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