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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
Thread gallery
23
TooBigForMyBoots · 24/07/2023 20:28

whereismysleep · 24/07/2023 14:11

Has everyone forgotten it's the Tories who opened this entire can of worms in the first place with the proposed GRA reforms?

It's complicated.🤣🤣🤣

SunnyEgg · 24/07/2023 20:35

IwantToRetire · 24/07/2023 19:54

Here's the full thread https://twitter.com/KemiBadenoch/status/1683537279770566656

Brazen stuff from@AnnelieseDodds
. Labour have had YEARS to think of a new policy on gender recognition but they didn’t. Because it’s a very difficult area that requires bravery and being honest with people. It’s a lot easier to copy and paste our policy from 3 years ago…(1/5)

Today Dodds has announced the same policy, pretending it’s new thinking -we announced improvements to modernise 3 years ago and finished them last year! This is bare-faced hypocrisy from Labour…

How can anyone trust Labour on these issues? Today Dodds says a medical diagnosis is ‘important’. Yet here’s Keir Starmer two years ago announcing the complete opposite. Will he tell us why he has changed his mind? Will he admit that he was wrong? …(3/5)

Will Starmer and Labour apologise to all the men and women insulted by Labour MPs for this policy they now claim as their own? Will they work with us to do the right thing? Or keep shouting “culture wars” anytime ministers discuss these sensitive issues? …(4/5)

Make no mistake. Labour are embarrassed at being on the wrong side of history with numerous court cases on this issue and scandals like at the Tavistock. They want to fool people and hide what they really think. They want you to think they have changed. They haven’t. (5/5)

Good on Kemi

GailBlancheViola · 24/07/2023 20:39

@BellsMoon thank you for those screenshots.

fromorbit · 24/07/2023 20:40

WomenShouldStillWinWomensSports · 24/07/2023 11:24

@fromorbit how do we find these events and are there any that aren't in far-flung corners of the UK? I have a baby and a preschooler so much as I would love to be able to hit the road and drive to Aberdeen or Portsmouth, it's not really feasible. All I've been hearing about for years is the amazing work being done by women in Scotland (and hats off to all of you). I haven't been back in the UK for long (was living abroad) and don't know where to look to get involved. I do write to my MP but it won't influence the Labour party because he's a Con.

Contact the Women's Rights Network they seem to be good at organising locally and have a process for vetting members.
https://www.womensrights.network/get-in-touch

Or post on Mumsnet/twitter and put together your own local group.

Get In Touch | Women's Rights Network | UK

The Women's Rights Network campaigns to retain the hard-won rights of women. You can contact us via the following methods...

https://www.womensrights.network/get-in-touch

ThomasinaLivesHere · 24/07/2023 20:43

Woman2023 · 24/07/2023 06:39

I find it interesting that she talks about the stigma of gender dysphoria previously being a psychiatric condition.

I don't think psychiatric conditions should be stigmatised any more than physical ones. I also can't understand how a mental condition that leads a person to undertake harmful surgery and drugs that damage their body in an apparent effort to calm their mind isn't a psychiatric disorder.

I think it’s because they’re linking it in their minds with being gay and how that used to be listed as a psychiatric disorder but it’s obviously not comparable.

EwwSprouts · 24/07/2023 20:56

Not buying it. A period of reflection, on what exactly? Proven how? New shade of lipstick?

fromorbit · 24/07/2023 21:01

Meanwhile in Scotland things are getting interesting. From there is is clear British Labour by coming out against Self ID have now really messed up things for Scottish Labour who have a completely different policy. Great article looking at this. How will this work in an election? Wait and see.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/national/scotland-today/23675290.labour-rules-self-id-u-turn-gender-recognition-reform/

Same applies to Welsh Labour of course.

Also remember Dodds article comes out of the debates at the Labour National Policy Forum. Guardian article:

"As well as economic issues discussed at the NPF, delegates also agreed a position on the Gender Recognition Act that supported reform but not “self-ID”.
The wording of the policy, seen by the Guardian, said that the current process of gender recognition was “intrusive, outdated and humiliating”.
Labour will commit to “modernise, simplify and reform the gender recognition law to a new process, taking into account international evidence of what works effectively”, the document said. The party will continue supporting the implementation of the 2010 Equality Act, “including its provision for single-sex exemptions”.
In addition, it was agreed that the party will “end discrimination against trans people, non-binary and gender diverse people, and ensure they are treated with respect and dignity in society”.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/23/keir-starmer-excludes-uncosted-policies-in-victory-over-unite-and-activists

So it sounds like Labour wants to go into election championing the rights of Ezra Miller and Sam Smith to have special status. Should be interesting.

Sarwar overruled as UK Labour u-turns on gender recognition and rules out self-id

LABOUR reforms of the Gender Recognition Act will not include so-called self-ID, the party’s shadow secretary of state for women and equalities…

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/national/scotland-today/23675290.labour-rules-self-id-u-turn-gender-recognition-reform

RebelliousCow · 24/07/2023 21:17

A totally cynical and strategic move by Labour/Stonewall ( indistinguishable from each other) in the wake of the resignation of Nancy Kelley, and the disastrous interview by Iain Anderson with Beth Rigby.

The Tories finally saw their moment to capitalise on the chaos, and now Dodds, in response, has come out with this PR exercise. They think if they remove reference to the words 'Self Id' that those stupid women will give thanks and go home.

Kemi on fire, and totally on the ball, as usual. She'll be brilliant in opposition.

ChristinaXYZ · 24/07/2023 21:18

SunnyEgg · 24/07/2023 19:24

Really?

I didn’t know that about the gender identity in law part

Labour are playing us. Or trying to

No lawyer, just quoting re the gender identity in law. More I think about it more likely it seems

https://twitter.com/Jebadoo2/status/1683530211143368718

https://twitter.com/Jebadoo2/status/1683530211143368718

RebelliousCow · 24/07/2023 21:23

GailBlancheViola · 24/07/2023 20:19

In response:

A few weeks ago that was true, it is not now I clicked your link and got ONE tweet number 3/5 so don't tell me I can read all the tweets because they no longer come up as they used to.

I do support all forms of accessibility, and therefore for me screenshots of tweets give me accessibility.

You could have asked for the link to be included instead of your demand to the poster not to screenshot tweets and include them as a photo but as is par for the course with you you demand that everyone falls into line with you.

As for the comment about ramps, you have no idea what you are talking about in regard to me or indeed who you are talking to.

Copying a wall of text from the tweet wouldn't satisfy you either as it would fall foul of your need to verify stance.

The impression you give on this Board is that you want everything your way, you complain if more than one thread is started on the same subject, you complain how people quote when responding, in fact you complain an awful lot. This Board is not your personal fiefdom.

I signed up to twitter not so that I could tweet ( I never have and never will) but so that I could view. I've had no issue looking at twitter feeds - although it is helpful, and far easier, when people transcribe tweets for us all to see, and archive, on here.

Boiledbeetle · 24/07/2023 21:25

Incoming: stonewall wall of words
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/about-us/news/stonewall-statement-labours-gender-recognition-act-reform-proposals

Stonewall statement on Labour's Gender Recognition Act reform proposals

As Labour’s Shadow Women and Equalities Secretary writes about what the Labour Party means by modernising the legal gender recognition process, it’s important we put on record Stonewall’s view on how to drive forward meaningful reform.

Let’s start with where we are. The UK has fallen off track as an international leader on LGBTQ+ rights. Just 8 years ago we had the best LGBTQ+ rights in Europe, in 2023 we stand in 17th place. We have fallen back by staying still, as other countries have progressed and modernised their legislation, particularly on trans and intersex people’s rights.

Legal gender recognition is one of those rights where the UK has gone from leading to lagging. Passed in 2004, the UK’s Gender Recognition Act is now far behind international best practice. Crucially the 2004 Gender Recognition Act follows a medicalised model, where a trans person has to hold a medical diagnosis of ‘gender dysphoria’, which currently takes years to obtain, and present years of proof of ‘living in role’ to an anonymous panel to apply for a certificate.

International leading practice has moved to a model based on legal self-determination. That is because it is inhumane and undignified to make trans people obtain a medical diagnosis to obtain legal gender recognition. An ever-growing number of countries have moved to, or are moving to, this model over the last fifteen years. In 2019, the World Health Organisation de-classified being trans as a mental health disorder.

If any political party wants to get the UK back on track for LGBTQ+ rights, they need to lean-in to international evidence, experience and best practice. Speak to Ireland, speak to Belgium, speak to New Zealand, Switzerland, Denmark, large parts of Canada, US and Australia. Review the evidence – which finds no known cases of fraudulent or criminal intent. They need to understand how legal gender recognition with a de-medicalised model is working in practice before formulating the detail of their policy.

It is wrong to suggest that safeguards cannot exist with a de-medicalised model. The Scottish Gender Recognition Reform Bill was the most scrutinised piece of legislation ever passed by the Scottish Parliament and was passed by a solid majority of MSPs with support drawn from all parties.

Safeguarding was extensively considered by Scottish parliamentarians over the course of the Bill, including several amendments that were tabled and included to explicitly bolster protections. One such successful amendment was by the Scottish Conservative MSP Jamie Greene, which created a new statutory aggravation offence connected to fraudulently obtaining a GRC. The safeguards in the Scottish Bill go much further than the UK Gender Recognition Act, and are much stronger and more specific than a GP being involved in the process, as was suggested by Labour today.
It is also important to note that the Bill was backed by every established women’s organisation in Scotland, including Women’s Aid, Amnesty International, Engender and Rape Crisis Scotland. The vast majority of women MSPs voted in favour of the Bill. The majority of Scotland’s women MSPs, feminist advocates and policy experts are satisfied that the provisions in the Bill do not have negative impacts on women and girls in Scotland.

If Labour are serious about reforming the Gender Recognition Act and enhancing trans people’s legal protections, we need a strategy informed by input from trans people on their needs and priorities, and a real understanding of how practice is working internationally. Not just on legal recognition, but healthcare, anti-discrimination and education.

There is a welcome intention to promote the dignity, respect and the potential of trans people, and it is now vital that they engage with communities and international experience before working on the detail of policies.

RebelliousCow · 24/07/2023 21:26

MavisMcMinty · 24/07/2023 19:24

The division is largely because “the left” (in which I include myself) is heavily bound up with supporting the underdog, the oppressed minority, of being tolerant and open-minded. The rhetoric has overwhelmingly been #BeKind so anyone with GC views is necessarily #Unkind and right-wing to boot.

I suspect many Labour politicians feel trapped in identity politics despite their misgivings, and they seem to think there are more #BeKinders amongst the electorate than, er, women (51%).

After 13+ years of Tory government I cannot bear the thought of being stuck with them AGAIN all because of the ridiculous current gender ideology fad/craze/contagion.

Genuine question......but what do you imagine will be that different under a Kier Starmer Labour administration - beyond soundbites and warm sentiments?

RebelliousCow · 24/07/2023 21:28

DworkinWasRight · 24/07/2023 19:30

She does at least talk about retaining single-sex exceptions for “biological women” but surely to do that requires amending the Equality Act to clarify that sex means biological sex, in line with the Sex Matters demand.

That also implies that there are such things as 'non biological' women.

I simply refuse to go along with any of this shit anymore.

Whattheactualwhatnow · 24/07/2023 21:33

Woman2023 · 24/07/2023 06:39

I find it interesting that she talks about the stigma of gender dysphoria previously being a psychiatric condition.

I don't think psychiatric conditions should be stigmatised any more than physical ones. I also can't understand how a mental condition that leads a person to undertake harmful surgery and drugs that damage their body in an apparent effort to calm their mind isn't a psychiatric disorder.

Exactly!

ResisterRex · 24/07/2023 21:34

Boiledbeetle · 24/07/2023 21:25

Incoming: stonewall wall of words
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/about-us/news/stonewall-statement-labours-gender-recognition-act-reform-proposals

Stonewall statement on Labour's Gender Recognition Act reform proposals

As Labour’s Shadow Women and Equalities Secretary writes about what the Labour Party means by modernising the legal gender recognition process, it’s important we put on record Stonewall’s view on how to drive forward meaningful reform.

Let’s start with where we are. The UK has fallen off track as an international leader on LGBTQ+ rights. Just 8 years ago we had the best LGBTQ+ rights in Europe, in 2023 we stand in 17th place. We have fallen back by staying still, as other countries have progressed and modernised their legislation, particularly on trans and intersex people’s rights.

Legal gender recognition is one of those rights where the UK has gone from leading to lagging. Passed in 2004, the UK’s Gender Recognition Act is now far behind international best practice. Crucially the 2004 Gender Recognition Act follows a medicalised model, where a trans person has to hold a medical diagnosis of ‘gender dysphoria’, which currently takes years to obtain, and present years of proof of ‘living in role’ to an anonymous panel to apply for a certificate.

International leading practice has moved to a model based on legal self-determination. That is because it is inhumane and undignified to make trans people obtain a medical diagnosis to obtain legal gender recognition. An ever-growing number of countries have moved to, or are moving to, this model over the last fifteen years. In 2019, the World Health Organisation de-classified being trans as a mental health disorder.

If any political party wants to get the UK back on track for LGBTQ+ rights, they need to lean-in to international evidence, experience and best practice. Speak to Ireland, speak to Belgium, speak to New Zealand, Switzerland, Denmark, large parts of Canada, US and Australia. Review the evidence – which finds no known cases of fraudulent or criminal intent. They need to understand how legal gender recognition with a de-medicalised model is working in practice before formulating the detail of their policy.

It is wrong to suggest that safeguards cannot exist with a de-medicalised model. The Scottish Gender Recognition Reform Bill was the most scrutinised piece of legislation ever passed by the Scottish Parliament and was passed by a solid majority of MSPs with support drawn from all parties.

Safeguarding was extensively considered by Scottish parliamentarians over the course of the Bill, including several amendments that were tabled and included to explicitly bolster protections. One such successful amendment was by the Scottish Conservative MSP Jamie Greene, which created a new statutory aggravation offence connected to fraudulently obtaining a GRC. The safeguards in the Scottish Bill go much further than the UK Gender Recognition Act, and are much stronger and more specific than a GP being involved in the process, as was suggested by Labour today.
It is also important to note that the Bill was backed by every established women’s organisation in Scotland, including Women’s Aid, Amnesty International, Engender and Rape Crisis Scotland. The vast majority of women MSPs voted in favour of the Bill. The majority of Scotland’s women MSPs, feminist advocates and policy experts are satisfied that the provisions in the Bill do not have negative impacts on women and girls in Scotland.

If Labour are serious about reforming the Gender Recognition Act and enhancing trans people’s legal protections, we need a strategy informed by input from trans people on their needs and priorities, and a real understanding of how practice is working internationally. Not just on legal recognition, but healthcare, anti-discrimination and education.

There is a welcome intention to promote the dignity, respect and the potential of trans people, and it is now vital that they engage with communities and international experience before working on the detail of policies.

They're desperate to lead a national trans strategy, aren't they? It's all they bang on about (when having a break from telling wimmin to STFU, that is).

RebelliousCow · 24/07/2023 21:36

Stonewall are obsessed with tables. trying to motivate people and organisations by how high ranking they are, on some arbitrary table they have created.

As I recall, it was the Blair administration who brought in this particular fetish for measurement.

RebelliousCow · 24/07/2023 21:39

" No evidence of fraudulent ( adverse) intent" Stonewall says , in any of the countries which have passed Sef ID. Quoting the U.S as a shining example.

Yeh, right!

GailBlancheViola · 24/07/2023 21:43

I signed up to twitter not so that I could tweet ( I never have and never will) but so that I could view. I've had no issue looking at twitter feeds - although it is helpful, and far easier, when people transcribe tweets for us all to see, and archive, on here.

I have no intention of signing up to Twitter. The reason you can see Twitter feeds is because you are signed up.

There is nothing wrong with people screenshotting Tweets and including them in their posts, it is far easier and less time consuming than transcribing them and I find it useful. Adding the Twitter link as well is no hardship and many posters do for those on Twitter but to say people should either transcribe the entire Tweet thread or just put the Twitter link in and not screenshot and post as an image is the issue. Posters who post on here can post however is easier for them and it didn't take IwantToRetire long to find the Twitter feed that the screenshots were from, I see no need for all the belly-aching about screenshotting and posting Tweets as images.

ResisterRex · 24/07/2023 21:46

Mark Jenkinson MP:

"Labour robbing women of rights again - removal of spousal consent means married women doing the bidding of autogynephilic men."

twitter.com/markjenkinsonmp/status/1683568293548793856?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

He's quote tweeting this:

"To modernise, simplify and reform the gender recognition law, we will:

Replace the panel of anonymous doctors who oversee decisions with a registrar model.

Replace the 'acquired gender' period with a reflection period.

Scrap the outdated spousal consent mechanism."

twitter.com/anneliesedodds/status/1683434056225112065?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

Seems like there's a bit of a ratio on that tweet of Dodds'?

5 retweets
65 quotes
42 likes
183k views

GailBlancheViola · 24/07/2023 21:47

Back to the topic in hand - never mind the US, they extol Canada ffs.

ResisterRex · 24/07/2023 21:58

Transwidows:

"So the GRA compromise for the Labour Party and its supporters is trading #transwidows “outdated” rights for self ID? Are people on this side of the debate OK with that?"

twitter.com/transwidows/status/1683579267723018242?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

They've linked to this underneath. From July 2020:

uncommongroundmedia.com/spousal-exit-clause/
"The Spousal Exit Clause: Trans Widows’s Rights Are Not Yours to Give Away"

zanahoria · 24/07/2023 22:11

Labour have chopped and changed so much that it is hard to take this seriously, especially as it is only an outline. Only last December they were whipping their MSPs into supporting one of the most contentious bills ever put to the Scottish Parliament. Now Dodds is saying that was a mistake.

Froodwithatowel · 24/07/2023 22:27

RebelliousCow · 24/07/2023 21:39

" No evidence of fraudulent ( adverse) intent" Stonewall says , in any of the countries which have passed Sef ID. Quoting the U.S as a shining example.

Yeh, right!

The wilful delusionality is one of the most grotty parts of this ideological political movement, and Labour are trying it on too.

Looking straight at facts and just identifying as not having seen or heard inconvenient facts, evidence, realities.

I'm all for freedom of belief. But choices come with consequences. If you are going to engage in a belief system in which your reality is entirely selective and personal and you just refuse to acknowledge the bits you don't like or which don't prop up your LARPing, then you cannot be considered fit for a position of responsibility. Such as running a country.

Froodwithatowel · 24/07/2023 22:29

At this point I honestly don't bloody care if they hand out GRAs via chocolate bars like Willy Wonka golden tickets, or do a bloody ticker tape parade with them. Pour them out. Let anyone who wants one have one.

But they are not bloody giving men rights over women and children, that door closed some years ago.

ScrollingLeaves · 24/07/2023 22:35

BoiledBeetle Today 21:25
Thank you for posting Stonewall’s wall of words.

Safeguarding was extensively considered by Scottish parliamentarians over the course of the Bill, including several amendments that were tabled and included to explicitly bolster protections

I watched Scottish Parliament as one safeguarding amendment after another was rejected.

Stonewall are spin doctor liars.

As for this,

Speak to Ireland, speak to Belgium, speak to New Zealand, Switzerland, Denmark, large parts of Canada, US and Australia. Review the evidence – which finds no known cases of fraudulent or criminal intent

that Is nonsense.

https://tgeu.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/tgeu-self-determination-models-in-europe-2022-en.pdf

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