Lesbian mothers should be on birth certificates

[SapphosRock]

Great article from Kathleen Stock.

unherd.com/2023/07/lesbian-mothers-should-be-on-birth-certificates/

It is surprising to me that anyone who supports women's rights would oppose lesbian parents having equal rights to straight parents.

From the article:

Naming a second lesbian parent on a child’s birth certificate is a family-friendly move. Arguably, if you squint a bit, it’s even a socially conservative move — though agreeing probably depends on whether you take, as your baseline, a society where lesbians will have children anyway; or whether you think of it as a cultural aberration that could, with discouragement, be stopped. Either way, putting a second lesbian partner on a birth certificate officially defines and legitimises her parenting relation within the family, allowing the burdens and joys to be shared between two adults, and adding a second layer of protection for the child. Family stability is important for good childhood outcomes, and this measure seems to provide some.

I debate sensibly with people who debate sensibly with me. As hannahbanana hasnt yet done anything than make silly comments, I react in kind.
You got the same with your 'love'comment.

I am able to discuss things perfectly sensibly with people who know what they're talking about.

This leads me back to my point about people thinking they can say and behave however they like and earn respect. No.

There isn’t a universally established right to know your biological parentage, though.

Most of the horror stories about lack of knowledge are from donor conceived children of straight couples.

When a same sex couple (like myself) has children, we know we’ll have to explain the conception from the beginning, and it often becomes part of the child’s story before they can even understand.

The people that lack that are usually children brought into straight relationships, where parentage is more easily hidden.

Then perhaps we could show compassion to the adults who are involved, instead of ridiculous comments about biology and facts.

@Rudderneck , youl be lucky. Same sex parentage is still so controversial that they are fair game.

This.

If a woman suggested on here explaining that her dad just didnt give a shit , posters would be up in arms. But why? Its fact and biology, no?

Then theres the ones who split from someone and have threads telling them the father has no right to know. Again, biology and fact.

As you've said in your well written post, when it comes to same sex and trans, there are marked differences that those who claim to understand but dont cant see.

Comments about biology and facts aren't ridiculous tho. They're the premise of the argument.

People get pissed off at being called homophobic over issues that might well affect homosexuals, but aren't limited to them.

And the transgender issue has brought it all to the fore. Many people are seeing the push to alter irrefutable biological facts, like saying a person was born female when they were born male.

It's raising the issue of 'biology and facts', like it hasn't done previously.

It needn't be unsympathetic, but you can't blame people for becoming hardened.

It's not homophobic or transphobic for the child to know who is actually the mother or the father. I am using those words in the correct biological manner, if person A who has produced eggs or sperm believes that they have a different identity that makes no difference. Only females can produce an egg and only males produce sperm. And the birth cert needs to show that. No child.so far, has been born without egg and sperm meeting and fusing together, no matter how that is achieved, and unless there as a good reason, such as risk of violence then the father/sperm donor needs to be named,for the benefit of the child.
As others have said, it's not beyond the wit of any sensible person, to find some way of recording the facts of the biology and then the circumstances who actually cares for the child.

@WildUnchartedWaters no, that's true, we don't extend "facts matter" to all aspects of our lives, and I don't take a general position that facts trump feelings. Context and nuance are important.

So - talking about feelings. In this case, the feelings of the child need to come first, because they are the ones most impacted by the manner of their creation. You don't know what a child's feelings are going to be about being donor conceived and their parentage/heritage, so the best bet is to cover all bases and present the facts - biological parents and legal parents recorded. The child can then decide what they do with that information, if anything.

I completely agree with you here. I'm heterosexual ( if that makes any difference to where I'm coming from) and genuinely concerned about how trans issues may erode women's rights and find gendering of things pretty offensive sometimes however it is totally wrong to equate a non-birth mother in a lesbian relationship with a step parent. I have lesbian friends with 3 little ones and they have both been very much the parent from each child's conception, regardless of who actually carried the child. They are honestly and openly explaining the children's origins in an age appropriate way as they grow up and the children are very secure in understanding it but also secure in knowing that both mothers are their parents. The second parent in a lesbian relationship should not have to adopt.

They can get as pissed off as they like. I'm not calling the person homophobic, but the statement. I think now most people.would struggle to even tell me what homophobic or transphobic is.

I think it is a fair part of the discussion. What I dont think is right is as evidenced up thread when people write long, thoughtful, intelligent posts and people respond with 'but its biology '. Same as trans threads , which I actively avoid, where people respond to well thought out posts with the seriously witty statement of saying g they didnt realise people can change sex.

These type of issues are complicated, painful and sensitive. It's not a bad thing to recognise that.

And I appreciate that some posters like yourself are coming at it from a good place, and I am too. But my defensiveness comes from snarky and provocative posts dressed up as 'facts' in the same way people get.wound up on the other end.

People seem to think in all areas of voice, as seen on here but elsewhere, with social media etc that as long as its factually true, you can say it and all must bow down and nobody must react.

A poster earlier made a raw and stunning post and the response was 'me me me'.

In what way is that okay?

I get reasoned debate. I do. If I was debating about whether or not we should host Eurovision I could use that level of coldness.

But women, children? Nah. And for those claiming they care only about the rights of the child, perhaps they could show some.compassion to the people who have raised them.

I disagree.

This.
I'm also heterosexual, people assume otherwise because of my passion for the topic. Your post is spot on.

Do you actually believe then that I am homophobic or transphobic because I believe that?

No, I dont know you.

But I believe that the statement made earlier (sorry, I dont know if it was you) removing someone's right to an identity is transphobic. It is in it's very essence.

What a nightmare it must be for children who have parents who pretend things that aren’t true about important things in their lives

I refer you back to your comment ahout someones attitude making it impossible to debate with them

What do you honestly expect anybody to say to that?

Perhaps you could make it your lifes work to find parents who have loved and supported their children on their own and make sure you tell the child in simple terms however hurtful what happened to their parent. That would be really helpful of them. Make sure you start with rbe men who leave and dont look back, hunt them down and tell them their fathers dont give a shit and then berate the mother for protecting them.

I make my case.
Youce done exactly what was done to poor @mumarooni early, skimmed down and wrote your blinkered comment.

I'm sure it was you earlier who didnt understand the legalities of parenting so I'm not sure facts is your strong point.

Like j said earlier, where does that get you? I assume you've lived a life of telling truth and facts bluntly and never deviated, not once?

If you avoid the issue of transgenderism on here, it's not surprising that you don't see how battle weary women are. They're over it. They will absolutely just say, no fuck off, you can't change sex. Full stop. They would've said everything else, week in, week out, for years. Literally. And I mean that in it's literal sense!

And this thread was started by a poster on the back of another thread saying it was homophobic.

maybe without realising, you've entered a discussion that already has ongoing context, layers and layers of it.

You're understandably taking posts face value, when there are different strands at play.

I think you'll find that most of the women on this board are compassionate. And very many of them are gay.

I've seen plenty on the trans boards to know how they work. I'm not unknowing, I have seen so much I actively avoid it.
Hasnt got them anywhere has it?

I've heard time and time again on tne too how compassionate they are.

There are some really good thoughtful posters on all the boards but perhaps the likes of mumarooni who is one of them could jump onto a trans debate and respond to their views with 'me me me'. That would go well.

Oh

we’ve entered the hyperbole phase

ace

Hasn't got who anywhere?

We've established the fact in law that believing in sex and that it matters is a protected belief.

We've got the Ministry of Justice to say that male sex offenders will not be sent to female prisons.

The authorities have decreed that the person giving birth to a child is their mother, not their the father.

We've persuaded most sports federations to stop men completing on women's teams.

And the government is about to issue guidance to schools which will hopefully stop the overwhelming surge of youngsters showing up at gender clinics wanting to medicate their bodies.

And people often respond to screeds of self interested egotism with me me me. It's not unusual to get pages of it.

Sorry, which part of my post wasmt factual?

Perhaps the answer is a new long format certificate that specifies

1. Mother who gave birth to the child
2. Any donors (subject to rules re anonymous donors)
3. Any "deemed parent with parental responsibility" an individual who is married or civil partnered to the mother who gave birth or an unmarried partner who attended to register but has not been verified by DNA test.
4. Space to recognise anyone confirmed as a parent by DNA test.

Each individual should have their sex recorded with an optional box to record a separate gender if they wish.

Then a short form certificate that just details the child's name and the people with parental responsibility, along with the usual data re place of birth etc. The short certificate should be the one used for general ID purposes.

I think the child has a right to know the true details of their conception and birth but family arrangements are becoming more complex and some of the information should be recorded but is only relevant to the child and their family.

I'm not commenting on the right or wrong either. I'm saying that although what you are describing is normative practice, it's only part of that picture.

Legally, if the mum puts down her husband, or another man, and that person denies fatherhood and it's proven, he can be removed.

Legally, if another, unnamed man is the father, and he claims fatherhood, and it's proved, he can be added.

The underlying assumption is that the woman is telling the truth about the biological father, to the best of her knowledge. If she knowingly lies, she has falsified a legal document. There is an assumption she is acting in good faith unless there is a challenge.

The reason for the normal practice is because it would be too burdensome otherwise - if we had to do genetic testing for every child, or prove the husband wasn't out of the country or whatever. The same as when you fill out other medical declarations, they usually take your word for it.

But there is absolutely no reason why children of lesbian parents can't have both mothers named as their parents on their birth certificates as they are the actual parents doing the actual parenting AND the children be told the truth about their biological origins.

The very nature of lesbian parenthood means that the mothers need to give significant thought to how they want to conceive, whether they want to use an anonymous or known sperm donor etc. In addition, because having same sex parents is less usual, most will have also thought through how they want to tell their children the truth about their conception etc. There are really good books you can get that explain the issue to even very young children.
I don't know any lesbian parents who would lie and pretend to a child that they were somehow conceived without a man being involved as sperm donor. They teach them the truth.

There are parents ( both homosexual and heterosexual) who may pretend or tell lies about a child's origin (eg not telling a child they are adopted, lying about who their father is, maybe making a child believe that they were conceived without a man being involved) but these concerns are not about any difference between a homosexual or heterosexual relationship but about how to be a good parent and make your child feel secure about their origins and occur in a variety of contexts