Lesbian mothers should be on birth certificates

[SapphosRock]

Great article from Kathleen Stock.

unherd.com/2023/07/lesbian-mothers-should-be-on-birth-certificates/

It is surprising to me that anyone who supports women's rights would oppose lesbian parents having equal rights to straight parents.

From the article:

Naming a second lesbian parent on a child’s birth certificate is a family-friendly move. Arguably, if you squint a bit, it’s even a socially conservative move — though agreeing probably depends on whether you take, as your baseline, a society where lesbians will have children anyway; or whether you think of it as a cultural aberration that could, with discouragement, be stopped. Either way, putting a second lesbian partner on a birth certificate officially defines and legitimises her parenting relation within the family, allowing the burdens and joys to be shared between two adults, and adding a second layer of protection for the child. Family stability is important for good childhood outcomes, and this measure seems to provide some.

It doesn’t make sense because the “minority” is now asking for the “majority “ to be held to a standard that doesn’t apply to them (the minority) at all!

Seriously, you are unduly hung up on the idea of minority versus majority. It is irrelevant to the arguments.

Being in a minority doesn’t mean people are oppressed or unfairly discriminated against or are entitled to special measures.

Some people have argued for donors to not be openly documented on birth certificates.

I too find the phobic name calling just because you have a different view inappropriate - this is a discussion not an insult slinging punch-up and the danger is by using this type of language the discussion of the nuances gets missed.

no only biological parents should be on a birth certificate. That is the point of it. It's for the child not to appease any parent

Thanks for that helpful insight 20 pages in. Did you read any or the excellent contributions?

But you have open said over and over that’s it’s not possible to regulate donor conception in straight people. Because of this you are ok with fathers who are only social fathers being listed. These cases account for 85% of donor conception. This number will likely go up if global sperm at quality continues to fall at its current rate.

It is stringent to require lesbians to name the donor on a birth certificate, not place the the second parent of the certificate at all, and then go through additional bureaucratic procedures to get parental responsibility when straight men in the identical situation only need to show up.

You say that you would like to hold straight men two identical standards, but then, in the next post, say it will be punitive to straight couples. So you don’t really want to.

I feel like you live in a fantasy where creating regulations that allow men to continue the status quo but puts additional burdens on women (who, remember, are already honest about their use of a donor!) and their children is a feminist act.

It doesn’t automatically mean that, but it’s what you are advocating for.

No I am not and that is some flawed reasoning that led you to arrive at this conclusion.

You have said over and over again that’s it’s ok for heterosexual men and homosexual women to be held to different standards when they are in identical parentage situations.

While I do think that accusations of “phobia” are thrown around too lightly, this is about as clear a case of discrimination as there ever was.

But you have open said over and over that’s it’s not possible to regulate donor conception in straight people. Because of this you are ok with fathers who are only social fathers being listed.

I know I have posted a lot of words in this thread recently, but you must be confusing me with someone else.

I think it should be on a mother’s medical records that she has used a donor egg and that this donor should be named on the form she takes to the registrar to register the birth. I believe that this genetic parent should be added to a new donor section on the birth certificate.

I don’t know what you mean by ‘regulate donor conception in straight people’. What does that mean? [political sleight of hand saying something meaningless in a way that sounds meaningful to confuse] I think all donor conception should be regulated as much as is necessary to avoid accidental incest, excessive offspring of any individual, inherited diseases, and genetic bewildering of the child. Sexual orientation would make no difference to this.

I don’t believe anyone unrelated biologically should be named on the birth certificate instead of the biological father. I don’t think it should be punitively enforced or everyone should be forced to do paternity tests when registering the father, just because a tiny minority would opt to deceive.

Nature discriminates against same sex and infertile couples who want a baby.

I don’t have you confused.

It’s not sleight of hand. You believe that donor conception should be regulated (we all do, no one on this thread has advocated for deregulation) but that only lesbians should have to list donors on the birth certificate, and exclude their partner.

You believe that in theory, social fathers should not be on birth certificates, but think it’s punitive to actually take all the measures necessary to exclude them.

What this means is that in practice, you are ok with social fathers but not social mothers.

If you actually wanted donor conception regulated at the level of the birth certificate you’d advocate for universal testing.

you say here “sexual orientation should make no difference” but then turn around and advocate for birth certificates regulations that only affect lesbians. So then orientation does make a difference, and while nature might “discriminate” against same sex and infertile couples, you only discriminate against same sex.

You believe……. only lesbians should have to list donors on the birth certificate, and exclude their partner.

How did you get that from.

1. Egg donors should be listened on birth certificates in an additional section for donors. This would affect heterosexual couples more than lesbian couples, since lesbian couples have two women with potentially viable eggs, not just one.
2. People who are not biological partners should not be listed on birth certificates, irrespective of sexual orientation.

???????

Any practical application of the regulations you propose only applies to lesbians unless you ask for universal testing.

whatever you think you are proposing, it means nothing and only applies to lesbians unless you test all parents, which you repeatedly decline to advocate for.

I have spelled out clearly what you believe means in actual practice, not in your fantasy land.

You don’t make any sense. Mothers using egg donors would have to document them, and this would apply to heterosexual women much more than lesbians.

How do you propose that egg donation is documented? Without testing It would be complete voluntary, and in reality most people would not voluntarily put the egg donor on the birth certificate.

@WildUnchartedWaters I assume you deem only your own “contributions” to be “excellent” as you have devoted extraordinary time to criticise just about everyone else’s views and/or declare anyone with whom you disagree to be “transphobic”.
@jolaylasofia has made a neat and succinct summary of the opinion of most people on this thread.

It might be succinct, but it’s an absolutely useless contribution to the discussion because it doesn’t address the reality that children often have parents who are not biologically related to them, and currently, the birth certificate is the only record of parental responsibility.

Thats absolute bollocks, but you do you.

I am proposing that egg donors would be on the medical form which the mother takes to the registrar to register the birth.

BTW - adoption certificates are certificates for parental responsibility when people are not biologically related to the child. Step parents can apply for parental responsibility via this process.

So voluntary. Because a mother who used egg donation (of any sexuality) can easily not disclose this. There is no way to know this at birth without a DNA test.

You can’t DIY an egg donation.

For me a birth certificate should be for the child. Amd biological data should be on there, even if it says sperm donor. And then the parents. I dont agree with putting father unknowm either, unless there is a real danger to the mother or baby.

@Inamuddle36 I was confused as I've repeatedly commended posters on posts and leaejed a lot from this thread.

I then remembered I responded to a post where someone said the feminist threads were homophobic and I said dont forget transphobic.

Bless you petal. I'm sorry I offended you so much you felt the need to jump in on something that doesnr concern you.
Il have a look for your insightful posts. Shoulsnt take me too long.