Page 11 | Labour canvasser today

SirSamVimesCityWatch · 2023-07-15T09:59:12+00:00

I'm in one the constituencies with a by-election coming up. Just had a labour canvasser (woman, mid/late fifties) knock to ask if I was voting. I said yes I would be. She asked if I knew who I was voting for. I asked if she knew what a woman was. I told her I was a single issue voter and that was the only issue that was going to decide how I voted. Her response: "I believe a woman is anyone who believes themself to be a woman". I told her in that case I have nothing else to say to her, and closed the door. I would have loved to have actually put some of the issues to her (rapists in prisons, assaults in mixed sex spaces, including schools, destruction of women's sports etc) but my heart was already racing and I knew it would be like talking to a brick wall anyway. But anyway - at least that's a clear pile in the eye for the whole 'it doesn't come up on the doorstep' nonsense. So, I'm either voting Tory or SDP.

RebelliousCow · 16/07/2023 17:00

https://labourwomensdeclaration.org.uk/womens-rights-in-the-labour-party/

Women’s rights in the Labour Party - Labour Women's Declaration

Women’s rights in the Labour Party: more light, less heat on sex and gender

https://labourwomensdeclaration.org.uk/womens-rights-in-the-labour-party

SunnyEgg · 16/07/2023 17:06

RebelliousCow · 16/07/2023 16:54

But he has said what he thinks; that Self Id "doesn't go far enough". He's said it so many times when will people start to believe it?

Personally, I think it is one of the only manifesto pledges he hasn't broken and that is because it is keeping some of his more Left wing supporters on board.

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I don’t mind believing it I just didn’t hear it in amongst the other bumpf

If that’s the case he can spell out what that means exactly.

RebelliousCow · 16/07/2023 17:12

Rudderneck · 16/07/2023 16:57

Well, I am trying to be as non-biased in my assessment as possible.

But the private school stuff is very interesting, because I think it actually dovetailes very much into a lot of the concerns on gender ideology.

There is a real element around parental rights in terms of educating children, that the Labour Party doesn't seem to even be able to understand. As in, if you try and talk to someone about it, it's almost like they are just hearing wha-wha-wha - they cannot see that telling people they must submit their children so state education reflects on things like parental rights and freedom of thought. They don't even argue against it - they do not seem to recognize the question or the implications.

Which is partly why I think that GI i not so much a weird aberration as some believe for the LP. It is attached to their wider beliefs and worldview.

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Personally, I think the Labour position on private schools ( as well as grammar schools) is based on the idea that both are only for the rich and privileged.

Most private schools, though, are small schools serving local communities, and most of the parents are just average people who have decided to prioritise spending some of their money in this way. Labour doesn't support the idea of this kind of choice because its focus is on equality and not everyone can afford to send their children to such schools - so nobody should be able to ( even though Starmer has now said he is supportive of independent schools)

Most parents are not wealthy people; though maybe fairly 'comfortable' people, including many working class people with their own businesses, or who have managed to do fairly well for themselves by their own efforts. Most independent schools are not Eton or Cheltenham Ladies

WhineyVaginey · 16/07/2023 17:30

I've spoilt ballots for the last 6 yrs. After voting Labour all of my adult life & previously being a member, I will vote Tory in the next election if they move to strongly to rebalance on all things GI.
I live in one of the most deprived wards in Birmingham. I'm mixed race, daughter of 2 immigrants, single mother to one daughter.
I believe Labour will win a huge majority in the next election, in the first term I think they will seek to curb the powers of the HoL, then legislate a 'hate speech' bill, if they win a 2nd term they will introduce self id.

I'm poor, I struggle like a lot people right now, I'd rather stay poor & have the freedom to say "2+2=4".
I haven't left Labour, they closed the door on me.

AgathaSpencerGregson · 16/07/2023 17:37

RebelliousCow · 16/07/2023 17:12

Personally, I think the Labour position on private schools ( as well as grammar schools) is based on the idea that both are only for the rich and privileged.

Most private schools, though, are small schools serving local communities, and most of the parents are just average people who have decided to prioritise spending some of their money in this way. Labour doesn't support the idea of this kind of choice because its focus is on equality and not everyone can afford to send their children to such schools - so nobody should be able to ( even though Starmer has now said he is supportive of independent schools)

Most parents are not wealthy people; though maybe fairly 'comfortable' people, including many working class people with their own businesses, or who have managed to do fairly well for themselves by their own efforts. Most independent schools are not Eton or Cheltenham Ladies

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At the risk of derailing there are lots of special and also specialist schools operating in the independent sector as charities. I can’t believe that labour would want to affect them detrimentally - it would be obscene to crusade against a special school for kids with SN. But they don’t say how the changes will be effected, which leaves people in a worrying state of uncertainty.
sound familiar?

Froodwithatowel · 16/07/2023 17:39

What an extremely salient quote that is from CS Lewis.

TooBigForMyBoots · 16/07/2023 17:40

Froodwithatowel · 16/07/2023 16:40

Labour's MO for decades has been get into power on as bland a 'don't frighten the horses' approach as possible and then once in power do whatever the hell they want.

Read some of the New Labour era autobiographies. Post democratic era etc. The lack of respect for the electorate and democracy is about as boggling as the lack of respect or care for women.

Did you miss Jeremy Corbyn?

AgathaSpencerGregson · 16/07/2023 17:51

Froodwithatowel · 16/07/2023 17:39

What an extremely salient quote that is from CS Lewis.

Pretty much sums up the modern Labour Party I’d say

TooBigForMyBoots · 16/07/2023 17:55

Rudderneck · 16/07/2023 16:47

I don't think anyone can make a statement like this on the basis that it's the same political party. A change in itself is meaningless.

If that were true, we could say the same about all of them, as they've all fucked up in power. None would be a party it would be possible to vote for. (Some people feel that way, mind you.)

What is more important is who is in the leadership team, and what policies, concretely, are they proposing.

The Tory team isn't what one might like, but they have a few people I think are quite competent. Sunak I think is a smart guy, and he shows some signs of being able to get the party on board. Kemi is very good. There are a few others perhaps. On policy, I would like to hear more concrete specifics, but I think they see where the problems lie.

As far as Labour, the leadership team is no more inspiring, and arguably less, because I think Starmer is proving to be a weak leader. On policy, there seem to be a few good ideas, but nothing that hits it out of the ballpark, lots of unanswered questions. Plus - the control on dissent within the party is hugely concerning to me, it could cause other issues as big as gender ideology.

In light of all this I see little reason to hope they would make things better, and real concern they could make things worse.

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Tory chaos and instability:
Vote Cameron's Tory party get Theresa May's Tory party.
Vote Theresa May's Tory Party get Boris Johnson's Tory Party.
Vote Boris Johnson's Tory Party get Liz Truss's Tory Party.
Tory party member? Vote Liz Truss get Rishi Sunak who was rejected. Like Jeremy Hunt, who was similarly rejected by the party in favour of Johnson.

With each change of leadership of government came a change in direction. Sunak is not popular there's doubt that he'll last to the next GE. If he does survive, like his 5 predecessors in the last 7 years, he will be gone before he can serve a full term. To be replaced by...?

Are you denying that the chaos within the Tory party has been damaging to the UK in the past 13 years? And it isn't over yet.

AgathaSpencerGregson · 16/07/2023 18:04

TooBigForMyBoots · 16/07/2023 17:55

Tory chaos and instability:
Vote Cameron's Tory party get Theresa May's Tory party.
Vote Theresa May's Tory Party get Boris Johnson's Tory Party.
Vote Boris Johnson's Tory Party get Liz Truss's Tory Party.
Tory party member? Vote Liz Truss get Rishi Sunak who was rejected. Like Jeremy Hunt, who was similarly rejected by the party in favour of Johnson.

With each change of leadership of government came a change in direction. Sunak is not popular there's doubt that he'll last to the next GE. If he does survive, like his 5 predecessors in the last 7 years, he will be gone before he can serve a full term. To be replaced by...?

Are you denying that the chaos within the Tory party has been damaging to the UK in the past 13 years? And it isn't over yet.

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The problem with this argument is we’re not being asked to choose between starmers labour and the Tory party of 2015 or 2919, are we? And it seems to me that starmer is clearly of lower calibre than Sunak in every material respect. And I can’t see anyone behind him I respect either.

Ofcourseshecan · 16/07/2023 18:14

ThisTimeIts · 15/07/2023 11:43

Your Labour woman example, is the type who now makes my skin crawl, they are Myra Hindly, enabler types with zero insight.

I thought the Myra Hindley comparison was excessive. And then I thought of the girls with scars instead of breasts, bodies ravaged by wrong-sex hormones, damaged genitals and organs atrophying inside …..

HPFA · 16/07/2023 18:23

And it seems to me that starmer is clearly of lower calibre than Sunak in every material respect.

Really? Neither are terribly inspiring but I can't see that Sunak has achieved very much in office - Eat Out to Help Out was a bit of a disaster, cowardice over the Privileges Committee report....

Starmer not only rose to the top of his profession from a modest background, he's whipped the Labour Party into shape in short order. He seems like he'd be a competent PM.

TooBigForMyBoots · 16/07/2023 18:24

That's fair enough and your personal, individual view Agatha. I am not here to defend or promote Starmer's Labour. I'm neither a Labour nor Conservative voter, they don't stand where I am.

We are not taking about the Tory party of 2016 or 2019. It's the Tory Party of 2015, 2017, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 and 2023 going into 2024 that's been chaotic, reckless and contemptuous and continues to be chaotic, reckless, and contemptuous.

To the detriment of the UK, its standing abroad and most of its citizens.

TooBigForMyBoots · 16/07/2023 18:27

ResisterRex · 16/07/2023 16:01

Had Jamie Wallis previously declared a position on sex-based rights? Before his series of unfortunate incidents and plainly unrelated transition, that is? I'd love to see it if he did.

Me too.

ResisterRex · 16/07/2023 18:30

Starmer seems to owe a lot of debts:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12304213/Labour-push-union-reps-paid-campaign-equalities-issues.html

"Labour insists the proposals are geared towards 'protecting people from harassment at work', and would support new mothers, pregnant women and the disabled.

However, union guidelines suggest that campaigning on transphobia will also be covered."

I'm sure we can all guess what will happen in reality there.

And he's such a flip flopper. Like the tree hugging business:

‘I hate tree-huggers’: Starmer rift with Miliband deepens over green agenda

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0751233c-1d0e-11ee-a1d2-5f915afc01a5?shareToken=bc18dc998491e7f62324e0cbb2071972

Or the rule about picket lines. Is it a rule or not?

And let's not forget his Penis News hostage video. Self-ID seems to be the only thing he's not changed his mind on(!)

Forwarder · 16/07/2023 18:32

The Labour Party and the unions that fund the party are both stuffed with men's rights activists.

The Green party is snapping at Labour's heels. It has ditched any pretence of ecological concerns and gone full Men's Rights. This may be an effective gamble for a niche party. They clearly think it a more winning proposition than boring old climate change.

Out of 195 current Labour MPs I can think of two who respect women's sex based rights.

Has anyone systematically written to each MP? My MP gave a weasel answer which told me all I need to know.

SunnyEgg · 16/07/2023 18:34

Forwarder · 16/07/2023 18:32

The Labour Party and the unions that fund the party are both stuffed with men's rights activists.

The Green party is snapping at Labour's heels. It has ditched any pretence of ecological concerns and gone full Men's Rights. This may be an effective gamble for a niche party. They clearly think it a more winning proposition than boring old climate change.

Out of 195 current Labour MPs I can think of two who respect women's sex based rights.

Has anyone systematically written to each MP? My MP gave a weasel answer which told me all I need to know.

I wrote to the sex based debaters from the WH debate

Really good responses from all of them

The Labour Party and the unions that fund the party are both stuffed with men's rights activists.

Agree

TooBigForMyBoots · 16/07/2023 18:48

You think the Tories aren't stuffed with MRAs? Or TRAs?

The trans shitshow in the UK has happened under and because of the Tories. From PM May's speech to Pink News in 2017 to the flip flopping of subsequent PMs. The urging of that typically British fudge that works so well (girls budging up for boys) to the CPS recommendations that withholding funds needed for transition is abuse and a Secretary of State for Education who can't define the word "girl".

My eyes have rolled so far back in my head that I'm convinced that is why my glasses prescription is so strong these days.

Waitwhat23 · 16/07/2023 18:54

Saw this and thought it summed up the Greens quite well

AgathaSpencerGregson · 16/07/2023 18:55

TooBigForMyBoots · 16/07/2023 18:48

You think the Tories aren't stuffed with MRAs? Or TRAs?

The trans shitshow in the UK has happened under and because of the Tories. From PM May's speech to Pink News in 2017 to the flip flopping of subsequent PMs. The urging of that typically British fudge that works so well (girls budging up for boys) to the CPS recommendations that withholding funds needed for transition is abuse and a Secretary of State for Education who can't define the word "girl".

My eyes have rolled so far back in my head that I'm convinced that is why my glasses prescription is so strong these days.

As I think we’ve already mentioned, the capture of state institutions has done much damage. However, the legislative framework has not altered, and provides scope to fight back, as maya forstater showed us.
The Tories have no plans to weaken this legal position; indeed they are actively considering ways to strengthen it (clarification of definition of sex). Weak and slow as they have been, I’ll take that over starmers labour any day.

Forwarder · 16/07/2023 18:57

There are far too many MRAs on the Tory benches. But I don't think that is the majority of the party the way it is for Labour. See WHall debate and the GRA vote in Holyrood

I agree with you that the 4.5 tory govts of last 13 years have let this get embedded in far too many ways. But, Tories did pull back from self ID and put the brake on it happening in Scotland. Which would have meant every chancer jumping on a bus north to get a GRC.

It's not that the Tories are great on this. It's looking at other countries and seeing that it could be so much worse under another regime.

TooBigForMyBoots · 16/07/2023 18:57

You don't have to take one or the other Agatha. You can reject both.

ZeldaFighter · 16/07/2023 18:58

Without being too political, I have never voted Tory in my 50 years and I never will. However bad Starmer is on this issue, overall I believe he will be better for the country. I suppose I could go Lib Dem but as a lifelong Labour voter, I'm not going to stop now.

nonman · 16/07/2023 19:00

Please don’t spoil your vote. No one cares what you write unless it’s something smutty and they can get a light story out of it .
politcal parties want your vote. They don’t want a spoilt vote

SunnyEgg · 16/07/2023 19:03

Forwarder · 16/07/2023 18:57

There are far too many MRAs on the Tory benches. But I don't think that is the majority of the party the way it is for Labour. See WHall debate and the GRA vote in Holyrood

I agree with you that the 4.5 tory govts of last 13 years have let this get embedded in far too many ways. But, Tories did pull back from self ID and put the brake on it happening in Scotland. Which would have meant every chancer jumping on a bus north to get a GRC.

It's not that the Tories are great on this. It's looking at other countries and seeing that it could be so much worse under another regime.

Exactly. And looking at other countries and Labour I’m surprised not all can see where it’s headed.

We’re giving up that small start at rowing back

Who else is even having debates such as WH and the rest?

Those pp who are loathe the Tories how will you feel when Labour take us to full NZ / Canada?

If you care and say you are GC I can’t imagine it will feel good. I doubt Labour will improve things much anyway so it’ll just be throwing away any hope on this