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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sex and gender: a simple foundational understanding

37 replies

BonfireLady · 13/07/2023 21:23

I will shortly be going in to my daughter's secondary school to discuss my review of the PHSE materials. I reviewed different year group materials for age appropriateness as well as how gender identity is presented. Thankfully only a couple of issues, the most important (IMO) being the words sex and gender being used interchangeably when discussing stereotypes and traits.

I'd like to find the most succinct and least contentious way I can of explaining my understanding of the two. I may send this over email ahead of the meeting, or bring it along as a written document to share.

Is there anything key that's missing or that I've misrepresented? Ideally looking for feedback from anyone who identifies as transgender/non-binary as well as those that don't:

  1. Everyone has a biological sex (male or female), which is observed and registered at birth and is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010.
  2. For a very small number of people (with Differences of Sex Development), sex observation at birth is difficult to ascertain and requires examination to determine. Sex (male or female) is then "assigned" and registered following the examination.
  3. Some people have a gender identity in addition to their biological sex. This means that they have a sense of being male, female or neither. For example, they may identify as male, female, non-binary or another gender.
  4. For some people who have a gender identity, this is more important to them than their biological sex when they describe themselves or wish to be described by others. For example, some biological women may request that others refer to them as men (or non-binary) and some biological men may request that others refer to them as women (or non-binary). This request may include a "preferred pronoun". If someone who has a gender identity is undergoing a reassignment (at any stage, including how they choose to present) from one gender identity to another, the reassignment is protected under the Equality Act 2010, meaning that it is unlawful to discriminate against someone for being transgender.
  5. Some people do not have a gender identity, meaning that they do not have any sense of being male, female or neither. The belief that sex is binary (male and female) is protected under the Equality Act 2010, meaning that it is unlawful to discriminate against anyone who does not wish to describe biological men as women (or non-binary) or biological women as men (or non-binary).

Obviously there's a lot more I could say e.g. gender dysphoria, sexual orientation as a protected characteristic, same sex attraction versus same gender attraction but I feel these are the kind of things that are best explored in a conversation. The intention of the above is to capture the basics as a simple foundational start point.

OP posts:
Beowulfa · 14/07/2023 09:50

OP, I agree with others in keeping your first response as short and succinct as possible. The longer explanations can be used later if needed.

I would approach it by explaining that this is your understanding of sex vs gender; how will they be teaching it?

Sex- the biological reality of Homo sapiens being a dimorphic species that reproduces sexually. This is relevant in certain key situations such as changing rooms and sports, and is a factor in safeguarding (I think it's crucial you mention safeguarding at some point).

Gender- much harder to define without resorting to stereotypes and cultural assumptions eg boys predominantly play football in the UK, but in the US it's a massive girls/womens sport.

Key question for the school- how are they going to explain gender without resorting to sexist cliches?

Rightsraptor · 14/07/2023 10:01

We all have a legal sex. For the vast majority of us, it is observed (accurately) and recorded at birth.

The other way we get our legal sex is if we are granted a Gender Recognition Certificate, which changes our legal sex recorded at birth. You have to be over 18 to get one. Therefore, if you are talking to staff in a school of under 18s, every single one of them has the sex as recorded at birth.

You are wishing to uphold the law of the land.

I don't think that gets repeated often enough: we are not the ones who want to change laws (with the possible exception of repealing the GRA). We want the existing laws maintained and upheld.

AmuseBish · 14/07/2023 13:38

At the heart of it, what I would want to know is, if my child asks if they are a boy or a girl, what are they going to tell them? Probably 'whatever you feel like' but they need to know what those things are without confusing sex and sex stereotypes!

NancyDrawed · 14/07/2023 16:08

NancyDrawed · 14/07/2023 08:54

I am also not a lawyer.

I think that your point 5 is probably referring to Forstater v CGD? IIRC Maya argued from a position of lack of* *'religion or belief' (in gender ideology). So while a person cannot be discriminated against for holding a belief eg religious, nor can a person who doesn't share that belief. This is really important when it comes to Gender Ideology in schools and workplaces because it appears to be that believing in GI trumps everything else, so it is good to know that lack of belief in it is protected in law

@BonfireLady

I've just seen an FAQ document that Sex Matters released

https://sex-matters.org/resources/faqs-gender-reassignment/#who

and in it there is reference to Forstater v CGDE which show that I did NOT recall the case correctly!

"In the case of Forstater v CGDE [2021] it was established that the belief that men are male and women are female, and that this cannot change and is important, is protected under Article 9 and in relation to belief discrimination in the Equality Act.
This means that employers and service providers must not harass or discriminate against people because they recognise that “transwomen” are men and “transmen” are women. Employers and service providers cannot require people to believe that someone has changed sex, or impose a blanket constraint on expressing their belief. "

I had thought that Maya's case supported a lack of belief in Gender Identity Ideology which I suppose it did in a roundabout way. Anyway, just wanted to correct my earlier error!

FAQs – gender reassignment - Sex Matters

What does it mean for someone to have the protected characteristic of “gender reassignment” under the Equality Act 2010? The government, public bodies, many employers and even employment tribunals are often confused about this.

https://sex-matters.org/resources/faqs-gender-reassignment#who

Tinysoxx · 14/07/2023 16:15

OP I think you should add a sentence about how the meaning of gender has changed. If children come across gender in forms and books, they should know that gender was usually a polite way or saying sex until recently.

BonfireLady · 23/07/2023 12:32

Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far. Yes, aware of Safe Schools Alliance and also Transgender Trend's really helpful information.

My meeting has been pushed back to September (my request, and not linked to the government delay in getting advice out) so it's incredibly helpful to read more thoughts from others on the words sex and gender.

To this end I'm cross referencing to another thread so that I've got everything in one place and can pull it together ready for the meeting in September.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4854137-gender-as-synonym-for-sex?page=1

This meeting is part of a discussion that I've been having with the school since October last year, building upon how it relates to my family's personal situation into how our experience can help the school to tackle the difficult subject of gender identity. In that context it still feels right that I have a general reference sheet to hand at the meeting with me. The difficulty is that pesky "gender reassignment" protected characteristic and the conflation of the words sex and gender within it. The government delay seems to hinge on this too, not just whether this PC can be applied to children or not. It's quite the mess, but I won't let it distract me from my conversation with the school.

Gender as synonym for sex | Mumsnet

Ok preparing to be flamed for this one and yes it’s probably a TAAT, but why do so many feminists use the recent (Psychological/Sociological/American...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4854137-gender-as-synonym-for-sex?page=1

OP posts:
BonfireLady · 23/07/2023 12:35

Tinysoxx · 14/07/2023 16:15

OP I think you should add a sentence about how the meaning of gender has changed. If children come across gender in forms and books, they should know that gender was usually a polite way or saying sex until recently.

I've already done this in my feedback so far but it's important that I keep it central to the conversation. I totally agree @Tinysoxx
It's definitely a very important point and is covered extensively in the thread that I've linked in.

OP posts:
DontGetEvenGetEverything · 23/07/2023 13:28

Oh, seeing as you've got more time I'll pipe up and say I think you should have the short section on DSDs. I think it's good to stave off any absurd challenges to human sexual dimorphism, but I also think it's good to advocate for respect for privacy for people with DSDs.
So something like:
A small number of people are born with intersex conditions, also known as Differences in Sexual Development (DSDs). A person's intersex status is part of their private, medical history.

SideWonder · 23/07/2023 14:56

I think what you completely miss in your first post @BonfireLady is that the general understanding of "gender" (aside from its misuse as a synonym for 'sex') is that:

the term should be gender roles and stereotypes: that is, the constructed set of ideas of what traits, behaviours, and attributes are considered "appropriate" for each sex. This ideas are historically and culturally specific and changeable.

To put it simply:

sex = biological reality; male/female; unchangeable; ahistorical.

gender = socially constructed roles and stereotypes; masculinity/femininity; changeable; historically and culturally specific.

(and BTW, people with DSD aren't "assigned" a sex - they are one or the other sex, and are tested for their sex, but have 'differences' - just as a human born with only one hand, isn't not a human, they are a human missing something that humans normally have).

SideWonder · 23/07/2023 14:59

If someone who has a gender identity is undergoing a reassignment (at any stage, including how they choose to present) from one gender identity to another, the reassignment is protected under the Equality Act 2010, meaning that it is unlawful to discriminate against someone for being transgender.

Hmmmm, up to a point, Lord Copper. Yes, this is the surface understanding, but the real test is that the protected characteristic is "gender reassignment."

This means that, say, a man who is undergoing, undergone, or about to undergo, gender reassignment, should not be treated differently to another man, who is not in this category.

This is often misunderstood as the idea that we have to treat a man undergoing gender reassignment as a woman. No, the comparator is a man not undergoing gender reassignment.

SerafinasGoose · 23/07/2023 15:05

In answer to Point 2:

For a very small number of people (with Differences of Sex Development), sex observation at birth is difficult to ascertain and requires examination to determine. Sex (male or female) is then "assigned" and registered following the examination.

I'd replace the word 'assigned' in the penultimate sentence as 'determined'.

You cannot assign a biological sex, and although the sex of people with DSDs is less easy to identify they are nonetheless either male or female.

It might seem a small point but I think it's important.

SideWonder · 23/07/2023 15:09

Absolutely, @SerafinasGoose

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