Sunak and Braverman’s trans jokes ‘unacceptable and dangerous’ says Parliament equalities chief Caroline Nokes

[IwantToRetire]

Caroline Nokes, Tory chair of the Women and Equalities Committee, warns against ‘seeking to make a group of people the butt of jokes’

Parliament’s women and equalities chair Caroline Nokes has given a dressing down to Rishi Sunak and Suella Braverman over jokes about trans people.

Earlier this month, Suella Braverman joked in the Commons chamber that “we can’t rule out” Keir Starmer “running to be Labour’s first female prime minister” – while a leaked recording surfaced of Rishi Sunak last month telling Tory MPs in the 1922 Committee that the Liberal Democrats were “busy trying to convince everybody that women clearly have penises”.

Ms Nokes, a Tory MP who chairs the Women and Equalities Committee, told news podcast What the Trans?: “I think it’s hugely othering, it’s very dangerous, and it’s seeking to make a group of people the butt of jokes. I just think it’s unacceptable.”
Addressing Ms Braverman’s remark, Ms Nokes said: “To be quite frank, it was a ridiculous comment. I thought it was very telling that there was silence in the House, there was tumbleweed rolling down the aisles… let’s not use the House of Commons chamber to poke fun at marginalised groups or some sort of school debating society, we should be setting ourselves higher standards.”

Of Mr Sunak’s remarks, she said: “I just think we need to be better than that, we really do.”

The MP – who attended Cabinet under Theresa May but has remained on the backbenches under Boris Johnson, Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak – acknowledged that her argument “may be failing within my own party at the moment” but stressed some Tory MPs are supportive of transgender people.

She also expressed “grave concerns” about the state of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, the nation’s equality watchdog, after a Channel 4 News investigation unearthed claims of a toxic environment and a rapid staff turnover.
“I get reports from EHRC staff anonymously that it is not a happy ship,” Ms Nokes revealed.

She expressed concerns that there was a “very particular direction of travel when it comes to gender critical views” at the regulator since the organisation’s chair Baroness Falkner was appointed in 2020 by then-equalities minister Liz Truss.
Ms Nokes said: “I look at the appointment now through the prism of, this was an appointment done by Liz Truss, who had a very particular agenda when it came to equalities.”

Part of quite a long interview in iNews https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/rishi-sunak-suella-braverman-trans-jokes-parliament-equalities-chief-2467613

I would have thought as a Chair she shouldn't voice an opinion. It is her role to hear all sides of an issue, and try and find a common ground or agreed way forward. Seems nobody has standards anymore. Flag waving seems to take precedence.

If iNews is behind a paywall for you go to https://archive.ph and copy in the iNews web link as it has been archived there.

Hmm. "Be kind" has really worked well for women hasn't it - especially for us lesbians.

No, not for any women - does that mean we mimic the aggressors?

For the avoidance of doubt, claiming that some women can have a penis is a stupid denial of reality. Does this help?

If it's OK for trans people to encourage people to punch TERFS in the face and the 'trauma' of people actually having boundaries is used to justify that, I think women - you know the ones who are assaulted, raped, murdered and exploited much more often by men and by men - should certainly be allowed a moment of mirth at Rishi drawing attention to the fact that the words woman and man meaning nothing if a powerful man (and they all have some power) can just say they're a woman an then something actually be one.

Yes i would like to know this

the comments about Starmer…meh 🤷🏻 i can see both sides of this

but sunack was just stating a fact, i mean i know people aren’t keen on facts anymore but still…what has he said that so wrong

At least some of it is internal Tory politics, I think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Nation_Conservatives_(caucus)

Sorry to say I wasn't going to be goaded into the whatabouterry, but please dont respond to posters who are obviously deliberately misrepresenting what Nokes is quoting as saying.

She may have tried to dress it up as being an attack on a vulnerable group but all she is referring to is politicians laughing at other politicians statements and beliefs.

The issue is what is her motive.

The article contents clearly show her to be biased in terms of her position of chair of the women and equalities committee.

Not sure what time the committee hearing is tomorrow but it needs to be closely monitored to see that she does not attempt to bias the work of the committee.

And as I said on another thread, given that there is currently an investigation into the EHRC tomorrow's meeting should be cancelled.

And if it goes ahead Nokes should stand down from chairing it as she has admitted in a newspaper that she in in secret communication with staff, even though the enquiry is a government one.

The standard of behaviour is just shocking and part of the trans deserve special treatment which is part of the thinking that allows someone to speak from the platform at trans pride and encourage violence against others.

It looks to me like she is setting up tomorrow's meeting to further her own agenda.

The fact that some people seem to think this is acceptable behaviour says more about their values or lack of them, than anything else.

Here's the details of the meeting tomorrow:

MPs question Equality and Human Rights Commission in scrutiny session
https://committees.parliament.uk/event/17987/formal-meeting-oral-evidence-session/

You could make a case that the house of commons is a place where you need to be more careful about your jokes.

But Sunak was describing reality, it's not a joke.

But Sunak was describing reality, it's not a joke.

Exactly this is / was just typical politician talk ie pounting out an oppositions weakness.

The whole article (in case no one realised) was part of an interview for Trans Pride.

ie it is a nauseating attempt by Nokes to ingratiate herself with a unrepresentative cult for no obvious reason.

And in terms of politics should mean she is disqualified from her role as Chair.

I cant watch tomorrow because of the time the meeting starts but assume it will be possible to watch the video later.

“acknowledged that her argument “may be failing within my own party at the moment” but stressed some Tory MPs are supportive of transgender people”.

I should think all Tory MPs are supportive

of trans people. Is she disingenuous or missing the point?

I never thought I'd agree with Caroline Nokes, but she's right about this.

Sunak, Braverman and all the rest's jokes have led some to believe that the Tory party are serious in "rolling back" the damage done to women's rights by Tory TRAs. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Some of the narratives I read about trans sound uncomfortably like the same words said by anti gay attitudes a few years ago. Swap the key words. It’s there.

How does that work? What are you hearing in your head?

The best I can do is a politician mocking his opponents for thinking two men can get married.

Which expressing disapproval of a liberal policy position, and hence expressing disapproval, or mocking of that policy.

"Women can have a penis" is not a liberal policy position. Okay, I guess it sort of is if you think you can restrict it to the meaning "men can say they're women". But as Helen Joyce says, you can't introduce a "1=0" into a system and not break the entire thing. Aside from that it's distinctly illiberal because self-ID isn't about self-ID, it's about compelling others to go along with your demands.

Personally I swap the key words and think it sounds the same as for mocking an opponent who thinks people can be cats, or that the world is flat. Or that gay men are women.

But Sunak was describing reality, it's not a joke.

This

And describing reality is not "dangerous"

Ricky Grevais has spoken about how people seeking offence are not very good at understanding how jokes work. There's a difference between the subject and the object.

As for comments by Sunak and Braverman, I don't even think they were jokes. Just factual, humorous comments. Starmer and the Lib Dems were the figures of fun, not trans people.

As for Nokes, I'd absolutely love to now why she's constantly grinding this particular axe.

Me too! What is her investment?

Must say I cannot stand the woman. She has such an unpleasant demeanour too. She says she doesn't approve of the " direction of travel". Of course she doesn't, but that doesn't make it the wrong direction.

I keep expecting her to jump ship to the Lib Dems. She seems like a perfect fit for them

Not this again. I know i shouldn't bite but It's such a basic logic fail.

People in days gone by being wrong about homosexuality doesn't mean that people now are wrong about transgenderism.

Homosexuality doesn't hurt anyone. It doesn't demand that people hurt themselves. Homosexuality didn't suppress free speech. It didn't set up clinics where teenage girls get their tits cut off. If didn't teach little kids, in school, that playing with certain toys means that they were born in the wrong body. It didn't put kids on puberty blocking drugs, the same ones we use to chemically castrate dex offenders. It didn't put men in women's prisons. Or in women's sports. If you can't see the difference, please read the Break it down for me thread https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

No matter what your view on trans issues, making cheap jokes at the expense of a minority group is not how I expect political leaders to behave.

Why don't you read the Ginny thread that's running at the minute? That will be an eye opener for you.

Saying that a woman can't have a penis isn't a joke though is it?

It's one of those pesky facts that some people have such a huge problem with these days.

This.

The hushed voice, head tilt and extreme signals of excessive and unusual respect - regardless of behaviour including the extremely unacceptable and extremely ridiculous - is what got us into this mess. And now that extreme virtue signal one way is usually linked to making clear that women not only don't get that equality of respect, they get less than the everybody else norm to make clear they're lesser than TQ.

This is a call to prayer. The answer is fuck off.

We've got men shouting in the streets to punch women who say no to them, and she's wittering about holding a name in the mouth without sufficient piety and seriousness of thought. Get a fucking grip for pete's sake and stop with the religious performativeness.

Isn't she assuming Keir Starmer's gender? What is actually stopping Starmer from identifying as female and campaigning for prime minister? Other people seem to do it.

Sunak didn't say anything that isn't true, I wouldn't call it a joke. At this point the comment about KS isn't out of the realm of possibility which highlights the ridiculousness of it all.