Brexit

[Grammarnut]

I am curious that so often on threads here that those who voted to leave the EU are so heavily criticised, especially as the EU is so adamant in its promotion of transgenderism. I find this peculiar in conjunction with a supra-national organisation which wants to force many of its members into social policies their populations do not want, e.g. that transwomen are women. Does anyone else find it odd?

Don't understand what you're asking, sorry.

Is it that there is overlap between GC people and those who desire to remain in the EU?

At the time of voting in the Brexit referendum, I don't think it was particularly clear that the EU was pushing gender ideology strongly. Certainly it was not something that I was aware of at the time. So if that's what you're asking about, as to why people who were/are anti-Brexit are now also pushing back against transactivism/ideology, then that may be why.

So I can’t be anti Brexit but GC then?
People who wished to remain in The EU didn’t all believe that The EU was perfect but we do know that as a nation we would be better in than out

This. They are not be all or end all you can still feel something is a better option with flaws.

You are confused that different people think different things and not everybody aligns with everyone else on many topics?

Are you as 'GC as they come'?

I voted to remain and now live in France.

I still know that humans cannot change sex.

I suppose because we're all awful old right-wingers, we must also be Brexit-voting Gammons. Interestingly, many EU countries have proper hard-core far right politicians who are very successful at the polls. Unlike Nigel Farage, who has failed multiple times to become an MP.

As ever, things are more complicated than the Ladybird Book of Politics.

Most pro-EU people only really think about freedom of movement of people and goods, and nice laws around consumer protection, workers rights etc. They are things pro-Brexit people liked too.

It’s the overreaching in other areas that put people off.

In an ideal world, EU should have stayed an economic alliance, without trying to turn Europe into one state. Then the UK would have remained in.

I weep for the education that kids these days could have had.

I wouldn't say that the EU is particularly concerned with the whole transgender issue. It has passed legislation to prevent discrimination but on the whole that's about it. The EU tends to leave the nitty gritty to individual member states to legislate on. Don't forget amongst its members are countries like Poland and Austria which are not exactly the most socially liberal.

Also don't confuse the European Court of Human Rights and the European Convention on Human Rights with the EU. They are nothing to do with the EU.

I think this is an interesting point, OP.

For a lot of pro-Brexiters, what their view came down to most fundamentally was that certain powers and democratic responsibility belongs, and perhaps can only really be maintained, at the level of the nation state (or lower.) Super-national institutions, though they might have important uses, are simply not democratic institutions in the same way, much less responsive to grass roots viewpoints or "the people". They represent a further abstraction of the political process.

I do actually think that for some people, concerned about GI, seeing how GI has been influenced/worked at the EU level, has given them a sense of what some of the anti-EU sentiment was really about.

And actually, I would say that FWR overall is much more likely to be sympathetic to EU-skepticism than the rest of MN, rather than taking a reactionary stance.

That being said, membership to the EU is a really complicated question, it's very multifaceted with both important principles, pragmatic elements, questions about how it will actually play out, and many unknowns with regards to what other countries will do or what the future holds. So there are many other issues people might consider relevant than just how GI and such play out in the EU.

Ideology v Reality is my issue on both subjects.

In terms of law and gender identity it's not the EU that matters. It the ECHR and the UK are still in the ECHR.

Also in terms of law, rulings under UK law could in theory go to the ECHR if pushed. We aren't seeing that - at least not yet.

I don't see the EU pushing anything on gender identity tbh anyway.

Brexit is the only thing more divisive than trans rights.

Regardless TRA organisations seek to influence all levels of government, that goes from local councils, to devolved governments, to British government, to European government to UN bodies.

So Brexit is a bit of a red herring, TRAs seek to influence all governments and NGOs and force the policies (usually undemocratically) on populations.

People voted Brexit primarily to control immigration 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Can anyone (especially @Grammarnut) point to any EU legislation (directives or regulations) on transgender issues? I'm not aware of any, but I might well be wrong. I'm not even sure that the issue falls within EU "competencies" under the Treaties?

Can you give examples of where "the EU is so adamant in its promotion of transgenderism"? As far as I know there is no EU legislation around transsexual/transgender rights - it's not even mentioned in the Charter of Fundamental Rights. Matters of individual rights are reserved to the member states, although as all member states are signatories to the ECHR (as is the UK), they are all (in theory at least) aligned with the convention.

I suspect that most people who care about trans issues at all, TRA and GC, voted remain. Both are issues discussed more by middle class, younger, longer in education, expect politicians to care what they think, demographics.

If you can prove that more GC voted Remain than TRA, then we can start this discussion on a real footing.

BREXIT = Britain Receives EXtreme Immigration Torrent

Check out the latest numbers

Amazing how it was the anti-EU Tories like Penny Mordaunt who were most in thrall to the Self ID agenda here.

Sometimes it becomes really clear that hard right "GCs" are the latecomers to the party. They don't even recognise where all this started and think they can make this a right/left thing, despite so many of us who've been working and campaigning on this for nearly a decade (!) now.

Seems reasonable to me that people with a strong view on gender (or any other issue) that they are working to raise in the UK, regret the fact that they now have no influence in the EU, which they had before Brexit.

Conversely, people who wanted the views of UK citizens to become irrelevant in the discussion of ideas in the EU are presumably happy now.

What @Beowulfa said. I think you'll find it's more complicated than that.

I've been following this quite closely for years, and I can't actually think of the EU ever coming up as ever promoting any trans thing.

Certainly other things with "Europe" in the name, like the ECHR, but not the EU. Certainly there are many supra-national bodies on board, like parts of the UN, but the if the EU is one of them, it must be pretty quiet about it.

So like other posters, I have to ask, where is it being "so adamant in its promotion of transgenderism", and how did I miss it? Are you sure you're not thinking of the ECHR?

I voted Brexit because I felt the EU was undermining democracy. Its rules are decided (ie what legislation gets passed in from of the European Parliament) by the undemocratic European Commission. It revolved mostly around the needs and interests of the Franco-German block. Too much power sat away from the nation states and at no point had we as a nation agreed to that. Free transfer of goods and labour would have been nice under some sort of trade agreement but that was only the tip of the ice berg of what the EU was about.

In terms of transideology. Yes this push is from MEPs not the commission but there is currently a push to replace for all references to "equality between women and men" in the EU Treaty to be replaced w/ "gender equality"

https://x.com/WORIADS_eu/status/1726974040819032216?s=20

the Franco-German block

Yes, that is one of the things that Brexit has improved, the Anglo-Franco-German block has shrunk a lot, and smaller nations are in a better position to be heard with one less huge nation. Thanks, UK!