Our Father ...

[SerendipityJane]

who art in Heaven ....

Of course if anyone had tried this stunt 500 years ago, then they wouldn't have had to worry about winter fuel bills for a start.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/07/lords-prayer-our-father-opening-may-be-problematic-archbishop-of-york-stephen-cottrell

I think the idea that we shouldn't use Our Father because some people have negative experiences of fathers IS problematic. It's a different argument to the (age old) one about why God is seen as male. It's about whether we should be free to acknowledge the positive way most people love their fathers and use that as an allegory to the way Christians feel about God, or whether that's not allowed because not everyone has that positive feeling towards their father. But if you take that argument to its logical conclusion you'd censor out all mention of love between anyone, no mentioning of mothers (who might also harm some children), friends (who can also be cruel), etc.

We should be allowed to celebrate the strength of what for most people are positive and important relationships (eg with our fathers) without worrying about whether someone else might be offended. That's what's new about what he's said - it's about this modern hypersensitivity to offending people rather than correcting centuries of sexism in Christianity.

All the evidence suggests women outnumbered men in the early Roman church largely because paganism was far more male orientated, especially the military cults. Not only was the teaching attractive to women but Christianity disapproved of infanticide, practised by pagans more often than not on girls.

To be fair, it wouldn't be hard to update it to Our God in Heaven... Almost no churches use 'art' and 'thy' these days, so it has been updated a few times in my lifetime

Yes, that is a lovely post, @Motorina

how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings

God the chicken...

Seriously, I did like Motorina's post but hope more for an end to all superstition.

I think it unhealthy to bring children up thinking that the entity which created the universe is a 'he'. This is a mainstay of patriarchy.

the church of England, Mike Pilavachi, bless their marriage but actually refuse marrying them. Don't post more , please. Enough is said and these are people who most surely ( apart from a very special grace of God ) will go to ....

But that's updating the language vs changing an essential element of the prayer. Our Father is much more personal, anyway.

The CofE's busy with their recruitment campaign for Rome again, I see.

God does tend to appear in male form in the Bible, but is that meant to be interpreted literally or allegorically?

There are some sects that insist it's literal. And if you are Catholic it has to be - the wine turns to blood, and the bread turns to flesh. It really does. If you don't believe that, you're not Catholic. Wars have been (allegedly) fought over this very question.

There are whole strands of feminist theology that have been talking about this forever.

This has nothing to do with transgender.

Almost airbrushed from history is the fact that when Augustine turned up to bring Christianity to the Angels, not only did they already knew, their version predated his. (I long felt the "he's already got one" sketch from MPaTHG was a subtle nod to this).

It's long been a source of amusement that despite obviously Christian artefacts turning up in Roman (pre 410) settings, we somehow have to believe it was bought to us in 567. And that's when my annoying "what else did they get wrong ?" siren goes off.

https://englishcatholichistoryassoc.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/christianity-in-britain-before-st-augustine-fr-r-whinder-oct-2008.pdf

This forum isn't just about transgender issues.