"You're Wrong About" podcast/Sarah Marshall

[theDudesmummy]

I feel quite traumatised after listening to this week's episode of this podcast. It is a podcast I discovered last year and I really loved it at first. Very American but very liberal/left-wing, included much fascinating sociology from what at first seemed to be very much an anti-capitalist feminist plus gay perspective (it was her and a gay guy Micheal Hobbes making it for a long time, she later went solo). I liked it so much I subscribed on Patreon and listened to every episode.

Then I started to get the sensation of a TRA agenda creeping in. Felt uncomfortable, and then unsubscribed after they openly slagged off JKR (telling outright lies about her stance). I still listened at times though because (a) lots of interesting topics and Marshall still seemed an intelligent woman with lots of interesting socialist/anti-capitalist perspectives, and (b) know thy enemy, right?

Today I listened to the latest episode which was about the male to female trans tennis player from the 1970s Renee Richards (who herself does not advocate for men in women's sports any more, something which Marshall very much slags her off for). Richards is a friend of Marina Navratilova, who also does not agree with men in women's sports, something Marshall clearly struggles with.

This episode was so full of self-congratulatory fantasy and nonsense, virtue-signalling and plain old bullshit, as well as some dangerous crap such as that "they" (people who disagree with TRA) "want all trans people dead". Really upset me, coming from a supposedly intelligent educated woman whom I agree with politically about many other issues.

A quote from the episode "some women have XX chromosomes and some men have XY chromosomes". How do you even...

If it's American, then a lot of the issue is that those arguing against trans rights or trans activism in the US can often be coming from a very right wing position (very socially conservative), or an unpalatably religious position, or a position that is basically homophobia. Or any combination of that. So it's not centre or left leaning feminists who are pushing back against transactivism because of the impact on women. So I can see how it's possible to see the kinds of people who are arguing against trans activism and ideology and be very worried about the consequences of that.

The chromosomes thing... well, nearly all women have XX chromosomes but there are some DSDs that mean there are some very rare other combinations that result in a female body. Ditto nearly all men have XY chromosomes but some DSDs mean that there are some other very rare combinations. I guess that's not what she meant though?

As an antidote OP, this is a fascinating listen about the lack of nuanced discussions and left wing politics. Ana Kasparian at one stage apologises for her previous take on some "left wing " issues - she says she's embarrassed by some of her previous behaviour. She's a powerful advocate for the left starting to address issues rather than hurling around personal attacks in order to ignore them. Someone linked this on another thread and it's well worth listening to - and really positive.

Oh she really didn't mean DSDs. She meant TWAW.

I have long realised that I find myself (very uncomfortably) on the "same side" as the US right wing and evangelicals on the trans issue, but it IS possible to share some beliefs with people you vehemently oppose on other issues.

Someone said on another thread here recently something like: that just became both she and Hitler both share the belief that the sky is blue, it does not mean she agrees with all of Hitler's other beliefs. That's probably a clumsy analogy but it's kind of like that, in my mind. I find it extremely disappointing that some left-wing intellectuals have been so captured by the TRA and feel obliged to spout nonsense because they don't want to be aligned with other unpalatable groups.

There is room for nuance and complexity, people! Sarah Marshall herself has many many times espoused nuance, complexity and looking past the obvious and the received wisdom, that is essentially what her show is ALL ABOUT (hence the name, she is trying to cast new light on apparently settled narratives). Why us she being so blind and offensive on this one issue? Very upsetting/disturbing.

I think it's probably hard to gauge the level of reaction you would get in the US for being even slightly off the mandatory party line for trans ideology. So no room for nuance or discussion. Any debate means you want trans children to die, or other similar hyperbole.

People like Martina Navratilova are more immune to the pressure due to experience and to some degree wealth and the ability to move around the world for work if necessary.

There are so many errors in this podcast( not just about Trans stuff). She seems to be very much a "feminism for men" woman and I stopped listening a.long time ago. Also she has the most annoying voice but I admit that's not her fault 😆

Also, it is upsetting when someone who you obviously don't know personally but you admire their work comes out as having drunk the koolaid. David Tennant springs to mind 😩 so disappointing.

I had to stop listening to You’re Wrong About about a year ago when it became very clear which side of the GenderWoo fence they were on.

I love Ali Ward’s “Ologie’s” podcast but there’s a bit of Woo creeping in there too (making baffled physics PhD’s announce their pronouns and such at the beginning of every ep). I’ll be gutted if I have to let that one go too.

Voices against gender-woo on the liberal Left seem very few and far between these days. Examples always welcome! At least the American left has some excuse: joining cause with Trumpists on anything must be unthinkable to many.

First time posting here, this issue is so interesting to me. I grew up in the UK (guardian reading), have lived in US (still guardian reading!). I read mumsnet and enjoy the range of viewpoints on most topics and tend to find comfort in reading sensible UK commentary.

From what I can tell about the US liberal perspective, the most pressing issue is that we are in a country where people historically are targeted and killed for being “other”. Race, gender, trans, etc. The liberal point of view is: trans people exist, they have a right to exist.

It’s really weird for me to read on here the absolute spitting hatred towards people who speak up for trans issues. This thread is a lot more reasonable than others I’ve seen. Sure, disagree.. I’m interested to find out what the details of the debate are. But many of the threads on mumsnet just personally attack the person who spoke out, with childish and violent language. Only on this trans issue. I’m curious, what’s up with that?

I've stopped listening too ☹️

I also love Maintenance Phase and If Books Could Kill, both with Michael Hobbs. But I'm finding there are some episodes I just can't listen to.

We're in countries where women historically and currently are targeted and killed for being female.

'Gender' has been invented to further facilitate that, and many of us are resisting that being imposed on us.

🤔

If it's American, then a lot of the issue is that those arguing against trans rights or trans activism in the US can often be coming from a very right wing position (very socially conservative), or an unpalatably religious position, or a position that is basically homophobia. Or any combination of that. So it's not centre or left leaning feminists who are pushing back against transactivism because of the impact on women. So I can see how it's possible to see the kinds of people who are arguing against trans activism and ideology and be very worried about the consequences of that.

That is letting the American Left off way too lightly. Conservatives only started opposing gender ideology as a wedge issue against the Dems - as you note, most of them don't actually give a flying fuck about women.

And gender ideology is only an effective wedge issue because the Left/Centre Left have totally abandoned women. The Left aren't supporting trans rights because they are worried about the conservatives' other views on women. It's the other way round: the Right are pretending to care about women's rights because the Left/Centre have given up on them, as regards gender ideology.

Quite. Listen to Blocked and Reported instead.

Three things:

First thing. Try reading UK MSM other than the Guardian. It isn't the newspaper that it was 20 years ago.

Second thing. Back home in the UK we don't spend a lot of time killing 'others'. We have plenty of domestic murders (the victim is usually female) and a depressing number of young man on young man murders but not much else

Third thing. We have lost, without any legislation, single sex toilets and changing rooms; single sex refuges for victims of VAWG; single sex rape councilling; single sex prison facilities; single sex hospital wards; the right to receive intimate care from people of our sex and, finally, the right for our children to grow up free from outmoded patriarchal sexual stereotypes.

Do you think we might be a tad upset?

Worth signing up to this substack from the American liberal journalist Lisa Selin Davis https://lisaselindavis.substack.com/
She’s trying to really hard to get the Democrats and liberals to see the other side, and understand it’s not a left / right issue

Thanks for the recommendation. I've just started listening to the Dylan mulvaney episode and it's refreshing to here Americans question trans ideology.

*HEAR

🤦‍♀️

Thanks, I am having a look at some of the articles on the sub stack mentioned, since I am interested to understand more about the debate. Have not so far found an article that has made a compelling argument to me, but it’s enlightening to understand a bit about the different positions and where people are coming from.

I am sorry that you have lost those things that you value. I don’t understand the part about the right for our children to grow up free from outmoded patriarchal sexual stereotypes.
and would be interested to hear more about what that means.

Re your first and second points, 1) lol agreed the grauniad is pretty crap 2) that’s why I was making the point about USA and UK being different, and liberals from each country having potentially different views on safeguarding trans people because of that. Which I thought was relevant and contributed something to this thread.

@20yearsinUS

Thanks for coming back.

WRT patriarchal stereotypes, long before I was born, my mother and women like her were arguing against the view that there are things that men/boys do and things that women/girls do. These are sexual stereotypes that only benefit men and reinforce a male dominated patriarchy. Through my lifetime until about 10 years ago, these artificial constructs were being broken down. We seemed to have escaped from boy/girl toys, boy/girl clothes and boy/girl interests. Today, if any child steps outside his or her stereotypical swim-lane, instead of being encouraged to explore a wider world, they are told that they are the that stereotype and must conform to it. It is an early, systematic reinforcement of a patriarchal architecture that I thought we had escaped 10 years ago.

I wish I'd written that! 😀No, really, exactly that.

Thanks so much for the many thoughtful posts on here and the recommendations for alternative reading/listening.

Is it, aye?