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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

The Cabinet Office are TERFS

43 replies

Motorina · 04/07/2023 11:32

I’m applying for a role via the cabinet office public appointments site. I was delighted to see this in the equality information section.

I’m sure this has changed since last time I applied. If there’s a mumsnetter involved then well done!

The Cabinet Office are TERFS
OP posts:
JacquelinePot · 04/07/2023 11:34

They are part of the way there. I would prefer if "Gender identity" wasn't given credence by officialdom.

If it must be, there should be an option to say "I don't have one". None of the options on that question apply to me.

DuesToTheDirt · 04/07/2023 15:38

JacquelinePot · 04/07/2023 11:34

They are part of the way there. I would prefer if "Gender identity" wasn't given credence by officialdom.

If it must be, there should be an option to say "I don't have one". None of the options on that question apply to me.

Yes, I agree. The second question has no answer that reflects my views.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/07/2023 15:47

I believe they used to be Stonewall champions. So it's good to see respectful reality taking precedence over delusional dishonesty

RoseslnTheHospital · 04/07/2023 15:50

It's better than some of the confused and garbled questions I have seen, but I agree from a gender-atheist point of view there is no answer to the second question that is relevant. It's a bit like asking if your religion is the same now as it was when you were baptised. I wasn't baptised nor do I have a religion now!

LoobiJee · 04/07/2023 16:02

JacquelinePot · 04/07/2023 11:34

They are part of the way there. I would prefer if "Gender identity" wasn't given credence by officialdom.

If it must be, there should be an option to say "I don't have one". None of the options on that question apply to me.

Bring pedantic, the question isn’t what is your “gender identity”? The question is: “is the gender you identify with the same as….”?

That seems to me to be a reasonable formulation, as it allows those who think that gender and sex are different, and that you can identify with a gender, to notify the organisation / their employer of that belief. Which is, after all, also a protected belief.

It would be even better if there was another option in addition to “prefer not to say” along the lines of “not applicable”. But I suspect it would be difficult to come up with wording which would satisfy everyone.

LoobiJee · 04/07/2023 16:05

Motorina · 04/07/2023 11:32

I’m applying for a role via the cabinet office public appointments site. I was delighted to see this in the equality information section.

I’m sure this has changed since last time I applied. If there’s a mumsnetter involved then well done!

I don’t think there is any evidence that the Cabinet Office is a feminist organisation.

That question does, however, seem to indicate that the Cabinet Office understands the EA2010.

LoobiJee · 04/07/2023 16:06

Sorry that was in response to your thread title, rather than your OP.

RoseslnTheHospital · 04/07/2023 16:06

You could have a two part question. (a) Do you have a gender identity? Yes/No (b) If Yes, is it the same as the sex you were registered at birth? Yes/No/Prefer not to say

The second part only becomes active if the answer to the first part is Yes.

Of course, asking if the gender identity you have is the same as your birth sex makes no sense to me. But if you believe in gender ideology then it would presumably have some meaning for you.

theDudesmummy · 04/07/2023 16:11

The second question is like asking "Is the god you believe in the same as the one your family believes in?". It assumes you believe in a god and there is no way to indicate that you do not.

Original poster
Motorina · 04/07/2023 16:17

I don't really care if the Cabinet Office is a feminist organisation. I'm just delighted that they acknowledge that my sex was registered at birth (rather than my gender identified then, which I tend to have to deal with.)

OP posts:
JacquelinePot · 04/07/2023 16:18

LoobiJee · 04/07/2023 16:02

Bring pedantic, the question isn’t what is your “gender identity”? The question is: “is the gender you identify with the same as….”?

That seems to me to be a reasonable formulation, as it allows those who think that gender and sex are different, and that you can identify with a gender, to notify the organisation / their employer of that belief. Which is, after all, also a protected belief.

It would be even better if there was another option in addition to “prefer not to say” along the lines of “not applicable”. But I suspect it would be difficult to come up with wording which would satisfy everyone.

Show quote history

Not pedantic, I'd say reading more closely! My point stands, though - whether it's "gender" or "gender identity" I don't "identify" with either and won't be able to answer that question.

As for not being able to please everyone with their wording, I agree. I would however, argue that it would be best to talk in terms that the majority of the public would understand. This ain't that. It's pandering to a powerful minority at the expense of everyone else.

You could also argue that in asking this nonsense question, they are pushing their luck under GDPR. What is the data they are collecting, why and how are they processing it?

Now who's the pedant? 😝

LoobiJee · 04/07/2023 16:49

As for not being able to please everyone with their wording, I agree. I would however, argue that it would be best to talk in terms that the majority of the public would understand. This ain't that.

What wording would you suggest?

They can’t not have a question related to the EA2010 protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

I thought what they came up with was a decent attempt at recognition of both positions, but with the caveat that I’d like a “not applicable” option as well.

I don’t think “do you have a gender identity?” would be better, as many people wouldn’t understand that. “Do you hold a gender recognition certificate under the GRA 2005?” would be too narrow.

What wording would you use instead? (Not asking to be confrontational by the way, I’m genuinely interested in ideas for improved wording.)

LoobiJee · 04/07/2023 16:52

Motorina · 04/07/2023 16:17

I don't really care if the Cabinet Office is a feminist organisation. I'm just delighted that they acknowledge that my sex was registered at birth (rather than my gender identified then, which I tend to have to deal with.)

I’m also pleased to see that. It’s great news.

I just don’t think it makes them radical feminists. Perhaps I’m being over sensitive about describing people or organisations as Terfs in thread titles.

theDudesmummy · 04/07/2023 17:20

Do you have a gender identity? is fine.
Like Do you have a religion?

Original poster
Motorina · 04/07/2023 17:38

It was a joke. And intended to catch the eye more than ‘I am happy with how the Cabinet Office asked me about sex and gender.”

OP posts:
LoobiJee · 04/07/2023 17:49

Motorina · 04/07/2023 17:38

It was a joke. And intended to catch the eye more than ‘I am happy with how the Cabinet Office asked me about sex and gender.”

To be fair, it was eye catching! 😀

Froodwithatowel · 04/07/2023 18:38

Good to see they acknowledge sex existing and mattering.

But the second one.... it's like asking are you C of E or Catholic or prefer not to say with no other options. Where 'prefer not to say' may mean many things which makes it rather pointless a piece of information to collect.

BabyStopCryin · 04/07/2023 18:39

So much fluffing around.

sex - m/f

That’s all they need. Gender identity is meaningless.

HipTightOnions · 04/07/2023 18:44

What wording would you use instead?

"Do you consider yourself to be trans?"

Better to ask directly than make an inference from two other questions.

DuesToTheDirt · 04/07/2023 18:52

What about:

What is your gender identity?

  • Male
  • Female
  • I don't have a gender identity
  • Prefer not to say
A simpler way of phrasing it.
Froodwithatowel · 04/07/2023 18:55

It's a start, but 'I don't have a gender identity' is still involving you forcibly in a belief system and would be interpreted by those committed to that belief system as you saying that you are 'agender' with all the associated stuff.

When what you actually mean is 'I do not share a belief in gender identity'.

Backstreets · 04/07/2023 19:01

We get sent a survey every year and this year I sent feedback about finding it offensive to provide a gender identity, a concept I don’t believe in. Wonder if it will be taken on board

OscarsAmmonite · 04/07/2023 19:01

I asked HR today about having a question about biological sex as well as gender. Said I didn't identify with gender, preferring instead to go by biological sex. Gender question had 'Prefer not to say'

DuesToTheDirt · 04/07/2023 19:15

DuesToTheDirt · 04/07/2023 18:52

What about:

What is your gender identity?

  • Male
  • Female
  • I don't have a gender identity
  • Prefer not to say
A simpler way of phrasing it.

Oh wait, I forgot

  • Cat
  • Dog
  • Other
JulesJules · 04/07/2023 19:19

No. It's asking if your gender identity is the same as your sex. You should have an option to say 'I don't believe in this gender identity bollocks '