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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Yet more insanity from Academia

98 replies

Imnobody4 · 28/06/2023 00:01

Sally Hines has a hand in this. Why should pregnant transmen have to stop testosterone?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2667321523000811

Medical uncertainty and reproduction of the “normal”: Decision-making around testosterone therapy in transgender1 pregnancy

Some extracts:

But what happens when medical science doesn’t yet have all the answers about how patient behaviors may relate to health outcomes for both the pregnant person and the fetus—particularly when they may create potentially-divergent health outcomes for the pregnant person and fetus? How do patients and providers understand and weigh relative health risks and benefits as they formulate, dispense, or work to interpret and follow medical advice at this complicated intersection? How might assessment of health risks, and concomitant medical advice for behavioral change, reflect historical and ongoing social practices for creating “ideal” and normative bodies and people?

We find that the medical science around the potential effects of gestational parent testosterone therapy on fetal development in-utero or infant secondary exposure during the postpartum period (e.g., via chestfeeding/breastfeeding) remains nascent at best (Oberhelman-Eaton et al., 2021). Previous research repeatedly demonstrates how ambiguity and uncertainty is associated with authority-(re)establishing practices that may either intentionally or inadvertently involve stigma, discrimination, and poor care (Doan & Grace, 2022; Freeman, 2015; Poteat et al., 2013; shuster, 2019, 2021) and gendered precautionary practices that work toward avoiding potential risk through protecting embryos, fetuses, children, and families above all else (MacKendrick, 2018; Waggoner, 2017).

These precautionary and expertise/authority-(re)establishing approaches had the result of shoring up social constructions around binary conceptualizations of sex and sex hormones and was driven, in their explanations, by a focus on attempting to (re)produce normative bodies and people.

The logics guiding current medical advice around precautionary testosterone cessation in pregnancy involve potentially troubling assessments of the sorts of risks testosterone exposure in the prenatal and postpartum environments may pose for later child and adult development: namely, potentially heightened likelihoods of autism, obesity, intersex conditions, being lesbian and/or trans. In this way, precautionary practices of protecting the offspring of trans people become, paradoxically, a method of social control through safeguarding against reproduction of some of the very same characteristics held by some trans parents themselves. It also raises the specter of panoptics of the womb and epistemic injustice as it simultaneously reflects elevation of the epistemic authority of medical professionals and erosion of the epistemic privilege of trans gestational parents (Freeman, 2015).

This work aims to make room for further consideration of testosterone therapy during pregnancy for trans people, with a call to more fully consider their mental and physical health alongside predominant precautionary approaches for safeguarding the normativity of their offspring. Doing so attends not only to the social control functions of working to prevent non-normative bodies and people, and the artificial binarization of sex and gender in medicine and society, but also that between mental and physical health as it insists upon increased attention to the mental health concerns and well-being experienced by trans people before, during, and after pregnancy.

OP posts:
Kucinghitam · 28/06/2023 13:38

Helleofabore · 28/06/2023 09:51

If I remember from reading one of the issues of taking testosterone is the foetus’ failure to thrive. Who would deliberately do this to their child? Who would deliberately deprive a foetus of all that foetus needs to develop in the uterus?

It is so bizarre that these female people would likely be fighting to be fertile in any case, and then they deliberately choose to deprive their baby? It is almost like the pregnancy is just another performance or another ‘special’ event to make them unique. It is still ALL about them.

And no, sorry, if I can spare my child from predicted struggles that make their life harder to navigate, then I fucking will.

How fucked up do you have to be to shame mothers about wanting the best start for their child by effectively shaming them for their ‘normative’ efforts? ‘Normative’ when it comes to wanting good health outcomes for infants and your children?

They can just fuck off.

Exactly this!

And once again demonstrating that there's no limits to the depths that The Right Side of History will sink to (albeit in a twisty, word-salady, obfuscatory, mendacious way).

lordloveadog · 28/06/2023 13:45

This is amazing. Trying to make sure babies are born healthy and not damaged by medication is reframed as...

...'historical and ongoing social practices for creating “ideal” and normative bodies and people'.

DSDaisy · 28/06/2023 14:40

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at poster's request

dimorphism · 28/06/2023 14:50

lordloveadog · 28/06/2023 13:45

This is amazing. Trying to make sure babies are born healthy and not damaged by medication is reframed as...

...'historical and ongoing social practices for creating “ideal” and normative bodies and people'.

Yep. I really don't think the research councils should fund any academic endeavour where the goal is to deliberately abuse and harm children - which is what is being advocated here.

Who can we complain to?

lordloveadog · 28/06/2023 14:59

When these people break legs or have heart attacks, will the ambulance staff turn up and say 'yeah, we used to be really into practices for creating “ideal” and normative bodies and people, but we've realized that accepting a range of bodies is the future. Also "being alive" is actually really hard to define. So bye'.

ChateauMargaux · 28/06/2023 15:00

I might have to go and have a long walk to step away from this....

Trans people should not be forced to accept their bodies as they are because their bodies are at odds with their feelings but they should have unrestricted access to pharmaceuticals and surgery to alter their otherwise healthy bodies where as other people who seek to reduce the risk of psychological and physical consequences of avoidable medical interventions are regressive because they are trying to enforce a normative society...

There are so many parallels to draw..... but this is not the audience that needs to be convinced.

NecessaryScene · 28/06/2023 15:18

This nonsense isn't really academic - there's no actual research, study or evidence happening. It's just people writing words, and getting other people to review their words.

This is what Boghossian, Lindsay & Pluckrose demonstrated with their Grievance Studies hoax - getting stuff published in these fields is just a matter of producing the right words.

It's a language/writing exercise dressed up in the form of an academic discipline, with citations and peer review. But there's no real content.

NotHavingIt · 28/06/2023 15:28

The way Sally Hines conducts herself on twitter is incredibly childish and unprofessional.

DontGetEvenGetEverything · 28/06/2023 15:30

lordloveadog · 28/06/2023 14:59

When these people break legs or have heart attacks, will the ambulance staff turn up and say 'yeah, we used to be really into practices for creating “ideal” and normative bodies and people, but we've realized that accepting a range of bodies is the future. Also "being alive" is actually really hard to define. So bye'.

It's a really good example of middle class academics' "Do as I do, not as I say" hypocrisy.
There is no way on God's green earth that Hines or any other tenured academic has ever or will ever discount the expertise of clincians involved in their own health care.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 28/06/2023 16:20

There is no way on God's green earth that Hines or any other tenured academic has ever or will ever discount the expertise of clinicians involved in their own health care.

So true... but they will defend to the death the right of anyone else to discount clinicians' expertise. Well, they'll defend it to other people's death.

It's good news when they publish this kind of nonsense in a more-or-less academic journal. It lays out what they really think, OK not in plain language, but at least in a way they can't go back and deny.

They have now laid out their flawed reasoning and exposed their lack of evidence to experts in medicine and child development who don't share their naive belief that ill health is nothing but a social construct that we can wish away by social studies magic.

Igmum · 28/06/2023 18:02

OMG those insane mothers and those poor children.

Bloody post-modernists or post-structuralists or whatever they are these days. Medics are just trying to socially control trans men? Give me strength...

DuesToTheDirt · 28/06/2023 21:16

I was advised against bloody sun-tan lotion when I was pregnant, as it wasn't proven to be safe for the foetus!

OhcantthInkofaname · 28/06/2023 21:30

To belleeager: "Does that mean anything in normal English?" It means "I'm trans and whatever I want is a priority."

Schoolchoicesucks · 28/06/2023 21:56

The things that women are warned away from/have gp's who stop prescribing/are judged for using when pregnant or planning a pregnancy because of "potential" harms - and yet "trans men" should have special consideration and this is where the funding and research should be focused?

If you are trans but want to become pregnant or become pregnant and choose to continue the pregnancy then you should do what every other female does and act in the best interests of the child. Whether that's not drinking or smoking, reducing caffeine, not eating unpasteurised cheeses, reducing or altering medications or stopping testosterone.

IncomingTraffic · 28/06/2023 22:02

OhcantthInkofaname · 28/06/2023 21:30

To belleeager: "Does that mean anything in normal English?" It means "I'm trans and whatever I want is a priority."

I doubt it’s even that.

My hypothesis is that most pregnant female humans - however they identify - do care about their growing foetuses development. They will be not eating brie and avoiding decongestants. And the majority of trans-identified pregnant women will have listened to medical
advice and won’t be taking testosterone because it’s an obviously terrible idea during pregnancy.

The problem is transactivists and transactivism (often from the religiously devoted to viewing themselves as the ‘saviour of the damned’ - as my chemical romance would hyperbolically put it!). That’s where this shite about panoptic wombs and normative bodies comes from.

I’ve actually read every single bloody word of discipline and punish. More than once. I know what Foucault said about panopticism. I can speak poststructutal and posthuman bullshit. So I can see exactly what they’re up to.

IncomingTraffic · 28/06/2023 22:04

No one should be conducting research on taking testosterone in pregnancy. It’s obviously unethical because it’s so highly likely to damage foetal development.

If university and NHS ethics committees are allowing this shit, there are a lot of chairs who need sacking.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 28/06/2023 22:16

No one should be conducting research on taking testosterone in pregnancy.

You can do useful research without doing a full controlled trial. You follow up women who are taking testosterone for whatever reasons and then get pregnant, and compare their pregnancies and births and babies and their health after birth to other women who get pregnant who are not on testosterone. You can advise women to not take testosterone and still do this kind of follow up.

But this isn't that kind of research. It's not about measurable health outcomes, it's just about beliefs and preferences, and even then it seems not to be based on much interview evidence from actual interviews with trans parents, instead it's based on theorising, speculation and ideology.

WarriorN · 29/06/2023 05:54

Sharron Davis mentioned the impact on the doping of female athletes with T and included disabled children in that. Surely there's ample evidence

NotBadConsidering · 29/06/2023 06:01

Interesting how they’re happy to dismiss WPATH’s recommendation when it doesn’t suit🤨

DecayedStrumpet · 29/06/2023 08:09

Honestly the whole document looks like it's been put through a thesaurus, with some made up words thrown in for good measure in an attempt to be 'cutting edge', what a load of old scrotum sacks

You haven't previously encountered the work of Sally Hines then? Grin

Anyone know the impact factor of that journal?!

Abhannmor · 29/06/2023 08:28

Like an even more opaque and circular Judith Butler. Incoherent garbage.

Also - why can't they spell ' foetus '? Or indeed ' paedophile '.

lordloveadog · 29/06/2023 09:20

It's worse than not doing research on outcomes - it's arguing* that wanting good health outcomes for babies is some sort of fascist project for producing normative bodies.

*arguing isn't the right word. This kind of writing never makes direct arguments. It insinuates.

ErrolTheDragon · 29/06/2023 09:26

Abhannmor · 29/06/2023 08:28

Like an even more opaque and circular Judith Butler. Incoherent garbage.

Also - why can't they spell ' foetus '? Or indeed ' paedophile '.

'American' spellings are often the standard in various journals

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