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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Friendship ends over my sticking to GC principles

60 replies

RealityFan · 25/06/2023 09:26

First thing to say is I have mixed feelings, but no regrets. Secondly, I am somewhat a "dog with a bone", somewhat culpable, but I also have my pride.

This is a fellow in my hobby, Californian, an online only friendship we'd cultivated over a few years. He's somewhat more intellectual and articulate than me, way better read (retired English Literature professor). And maybe most critically, a self-labelled liberal progessive (although only a small "d" Democrat voter), generally dismissive of all things conservative (let alone Republican, Trump etc).

A lot of our politics meshed, I've moved away from strong emotional connections to Brexit, populism, anti-migration. As usual with almost everyone liberal/progessive I talk to, I'm the one who's moved more centrist on so many issues, yet they strangely have been settled, and there's an underlay of almost snobbish derision ("it took you HOW long to realise Bxt, populism etc are poison?").

The only policy areas that I haven't mellowed on, after massive research and introspection, have been cancel culture/trans politics.

And so as our online chats developed we moved past dry discourse on our hobby, to free wheeling politics and culture wars shibboleths.

And here the fault lines developed. Whether a liberal v conservative or progessive v stable or US v UK disconnect, our heated discussions overboiled.

Strategically, all my fault. I returned again and again despite seeing not much common ground. Even when we did find an isolated patch of grass to share, our definitions around the issue were never agreed, so that seeming unanimity was nothing of the sort.

Culmination of the argument was his insistence on data...show me that damaged kids are not trans and being misled into medicalisation etc.

When I quoted the Tavistock GIDS expose book findings that vast majorities of referrals getting transition services were autistic/ADHD and other co-morbidities/likely gay/self-harming/over half from families with major issues incl abuse, and I gave him the deteriorating narrative from the Dutch Protocol over four decades, and that one European nation after another are putting transition services to teens on hold, he then switched the argument to say I couldnt extrapolate this to all teens, or all those seeking help globally, especially in US.

Well, I kinda lost it at that point. Now a fellow whom I looked up to as a proud rigorous intellectual (he certainly got me being more de-cluttered in certain analytical processes) is shown to be as guilty of closed loop thinking, unable to make the leap to at least starting to doubt his more fixed views. What data beyond Dutch Protocol and Tavistock does anyone need?

Other areas are more subjective (my arguments on the silencing of the female sex class and transing the gay away) and harder for me to nail with a progessive, but on this Tavistock story and data, I expected better from him. Way better than simply the shoulder shrug and demand for me to show him more evidence.

To then after strongly defending myself and for the first time aggressively labelling him as an ostrich (or do I mean lemming?), I get the return compliment of conspiracy theorist, pints swilling pub bore etc.

Final messages of "farewell my sweet" and "is it goodbye or au revoir?"

Now, I've only given a potted history, and he would write a wholly different version to what I have, but the basics are basically right.

How do I feel? Not bothered at all, actually. I'm my own worst enemy for unecessarily dragging an irreconcilable subject out, I provoked the final showdown.

And I've learnt that even certain common ground doesn't mitigate for a drastic chasm in temperament on one of the biggest conundrums of the age.

Yes, I'm sad. But I've learnt that on trans, you're vilified for being emotional/kneejerk, for not getting with the zeitgeist, and then even when you do what you're asked for and show data to back up your escalating misgivings, it's still not enough.

I've spent a year in therapy to help me reconcile and manage reactions to the trans labyrinth. An episode like this 12 months ago would have left me hurt and angry.

Today I'm sanguine and philosophical, proof I'm a more rounded person now, and that I won't sell my principles down the river.

Interested in the collective wisdom of MN on this.

OP posts:
RealityFan · 28/06/2023 12:19

Nightlystroll · 28/06/2023 04:16

The actual issue is a red herring. People, particularly friends, should be able to have different views on all kinds of issues if expressed respectfully. My friends are across the political spectrum but they all show the same kindness and fun. Otherwise they wouldn't be my friends.

I was amazed when I joined MN and read of people cutting others out of their lives because they held different political views. It was just so alien to me and how I was brought up.

You just don't need a guy you'll always be tiptoeing around.

There's a weird need to be literal and forensic arguing with intellectual Americans. I could never have a "relaxed" or flowing discussion. It was always framed as moral panic, culture war. Any concepts bedded in traditionalism or conservatism is anathema to many centre/centre left Americans.

More and more my views were framed as dead cat/attack dog/bad populist. And that the arrow of history would always point to the perpetual motion of "progress". And that this policy direction would be settled by the kids, Gen Z, conservative Boomers would have zero influence.

Ie, get past it, daddy-o, you're soooo square.

Of course the hypocrisy was never far from his words. Of course some trans activism has gone too far, some women and kids at risk.

Thanks for those scraps from the table, you're so generous, lol.

And of course where this plus cancel culture affected him or close colleagues directly, then he was as conservative in outlook as you could imagine...now Boomers must rein in the impulses of Gen Z.

It was a balance I sucked up, I mean I'm not always consistent in my world view, and my emotionalism was probably too much at times.

But to play his game, provide hard nosed arguments with stuff to back up, and after three years of accepting being on the backfoot, be told my proposition was still culture war flim flam, well now my patience came to a shuddering halt.

Additionally, to summarise the Tavistock expose findings, that in any other era would have caused mass resignations all the way to the top of govt, and be given a <shoulder shrug> emoticon type response, rather than anger or at very least request for more info, is a sign of the times, society's desensitisation and acquiescence on so much reflects very badly on the West.

OP posts:
RealityFan · 28/06/2023 12:32

Nightlystroll · 28/06/2023 04:16

The actual issue is a red herring. People, particularly friends, should be able to have different views on all kinds of issues if expressed respectfully. My friends are across the political spectrum but they all show the same kindness and fun. Otherwise they wouldn't be my friends.

I was amazed when I joined MN and read of people cutting others out of their lives because they held different political views. It was just so alien to me and how I was brought up.

You just don't need a guy you'll always be tiptoeing around.

It seems to be a common failing on the left.

I've had to leave a couple of Brexit related Substack forums because my Tory bias has been objected to, I must be a racist, homophobe, but also the merest kickback against against the trans Zeitgeist, and I'm a transphobe too.

You can't make this shit up.

And these comments are from people who say the world is shutting down, people need to talk more to other people.

Sure, but only if you express pro Labour, pro Rejoin, pro Self ID views.

Even on MN, a Labour supporter told me that she/he won't talk to me after my declared political allegiance.

Variation on the "Never kissed a Tory" t-shirts and the "I don't have a single Conservative voting friend, and don't hang out with anyone who's not left wing".

It's pathetic.

OP posts:
TommyNever · 28/06/2023 12:37

I've also lost a good friend very recently due to posting perfectly rational gender critical material, including a thread full of medical articles relating to the epidemic of "trans" amongst teenage girls.

Difference is, I'm a gay man and my ex-friend is a woman and a mother. This is the sad reality I've been facing - the most hostile reactions to my GC views come from left-leaning women, including many I've counted as friends for a long time.

I've often urged them to look into the subject more deeply but most simply won't. The mantra that gender criticism = cruel bigotry is still too powerful for them to question.

IcakethereforeIam · 28/06/2023 12:41

@TommyNever Flowers I don't understand it.

TommyNever · 28/06/2023 12:54

IcakethereforeIam · 28/06/2023 12:41

@TommyNever Flowers I don't understand it.

Thanks Icake. It can be pretty demoralising. With the woman who now shuns me, I would have thought there was enough depth and affection in our relationship to at least allow us to agree to disagree, but it seems not.

You end up wondering "perhaps I am a nasty bastard after all", but then remind yourself you're on the side of reason, science and sound ethics, and no, I'm not going to sacrifice that come what may.

dimorphism · 28/06/2023 13:20

his attitude skin to "you've got no kids, not a woman, you've got no skin in the game, why are you so beside yourself?...whereas I've got two daughters, and not really worried for them"

Wow - his poor, poor daughters. He's more interested in him being right than his daughters being safe.

Has he not heard of the concept of someone actually just wanting to do the right thing, even if it doesn't affect them?

IcakethereforeIam · 28/06/2023 13:38

TommyNever · 28/06/2023 12:54

Thanks Icake. It can be pretty demoralising. With the woman who now shuns me, I would have thought there was enough depth and affection in our relationship to at least allow us to agree to disagree, but it seems not.

You end up wondering "perhaps I am a nasty bastard after all", but then remind yourself you're on the side of reason, science and sound ethics, and no, I'm not going to sacrifice that come what may.

I know I'm a lovely person, ask anyone most people Smile It's not you, it's they/them. But it hurts to lose a friendship.

Ouchthisstings · 28/06/2023 13:40

Fuck me, he sounds tedious.

RealityFan · 28/06/2023 14:39

TommyNever · 28/06/2023 12:54

Thanks Icake. It can be pretty demoralising. With the woman who now shuns me, I would have thought there was enough depth and affection in our relationship to at least allow us to agree to disagree, but it seems not.

You end up wondering "perhaps I am a nasty bastard after all", but then remind yourself you're on the side of reason, science and sound ethics, and no, I'm not going to sacrifice that come what may.

Well, he wasn't a close enough friend to have these doubts.

I have two remaining nagging triggers over the whole TRA shitshow that has so captured people.

It's that even despite interrogating things very deeply, reading both sides (and God, is it hard to read the propaganda masquerading as truth from trans protagonists), practicing good ethical and logical decision making, it's still hard to not feel you're somewhat a bad person for judging, having opinions, being counter to the zeitgeist.

And drawing away from what I call "(im)polite society", the consensus of scientists, medics, journalists, artists, high profile individuals, philosophers, historians, social scientists, ethicists etc, who are "on the right side of history".

It feels lonely at points of maximum stress in negotiating this cultural revolution to find that you're out of step with so many.

Even though I've reconciled my views to realise they're out of step with me, this still feels akin to having kids, bringing them up properly to have open minds and to lead a good life, that they take against you, go off the rails, and yet make you to be at fault. And convincing the world you indeed are the bad parent.

OP posts:
Chaoticserenity · 28/06/2023 16:13

@viques...bloody hell I didn't know you'd met my ex 🤣

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