Teenager guilty of murder.

[placemats]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/23/teenager-guilty-baby-herefordshire-hide-pregnancy-paris-mayo

Apart from the fact that she was raped, if consent to sex is to be a legal term, I find the prosecutions allegations appalling.

'But the prosecution alleged Mayo must have known she was pregnant but chose to deliberately conceal it because she was always planning to kill the baby.'

Perhaps Mayo didn't get early abortion help she needed. I know of one woman, who had 3 previous children, who didn't realise she was pregnant, thought it was early menopause until 4 weeks before her due date. However to allege she was always planning to kill the baby is a step too far. It intimates that those in authority know this child's mind.

I think this case points to the fact that very soon Abortion laws will be changed in the manner of our American counterparts.

I had 4 friends at that age who got pregnant. Three were lucky enough to have parents who helped them and they either accessed abortions (2) or had an adoption organised. School treated them appallingly though and refused to allow them into lessons, making them work in the school library, in a side room until they'd had the baby and returned.

I know if I would have been in that position, as one of my friends was, my parents would have been the last people I would have told.

With my friend, she gave birth, and left the baby at a hospital. Obviously, the baby was reported in the press, friend had told two of us about it but swore us to secrecy saying as the baby was fine and would be adopted she didn't want to think about it anymore. Because we were barely 15, we agreed to keep quiet. She was clearly suffering PTSD, and felt that if we all acted as if nothing happened, it was over. As a friend, I tried to support her where possible, but at 15 you barely know yourself so I think it amounted to me buying her Smash Hits and a bar of chocolate and letting her pinch a cigarette off me.

Then she collapsed. She had an infection. Something we had not a clue was possible. The truth came out. Her parents chucked her out and she ended up in foster care, where she was shoved from one placement to another, leaving at 18 and finding it hard to access housing and work.

My mother specifically would have been horrific to me.

I feel for this poor woman. How dare they assume her thought processes. How many children - because she was a child- have given birth without having known they were pregnant ? And why has the father not been tracked down and arrested? Why is singularly on her shoulders?

They've scapegoated her, because the system failed her. School failed her. Parents failed her. She herself should've been in care looking at the family dynamic.

I doubt very much it was premeditated. I've seen comments she should have put the baby up for adoption, however that's easier said than done when you have no support whatsoever and face homelessness yourself if you are discovered.

I hope this is overturned.

But mayo admitted that her mother would have some round and been supportive...

Having been in this position, I would rather risk homelessness than have to continue a pregnancy and kill a baby to keep up the lie. And risk all of this happening (being both found out and being convicted of murder)...

Mayo also has older sisters who have children and would have been supportive. If she didn’t feel able to tell her mum, she could have told them.

The father of the baby would be a similar age to Mayo, I presume. I haven’t heard anything that suggests otherwise. Mayo herself said she had sex with boys to make them like her, which is very sad. It’s also reported she told the alleged father about the baby and he wasn’t interested. She also asked her mother a strange question about what a baby would look like if its parents were X and Y.

Regardless, I fundamentally do not believe the death was premeditated.

She was 15. She was frightened. Giving birth whether you are expecting it or not is a huge event and she no doubt was petrified. The giving birth in silence aspect points to fear of being found out. How hard would it have been to give birth silently?

Most intelligent people would think that juries who hear all the evidence knows better than a random punter who hasn’t, yes. You’re making progress. Keep it up.

This is not quite right. In some circumstances the judge can direct the jury to return a verdict of not guilty. That would happen if, at the close of the prosecution case, the prosecution had failed to establish a case to answer (so for example they had failed to adduce evidence to prove an element of the offence, or their witnesses had failed to come up to proof). The judge could then find no case to answer and direct a not guilty verdict at half time.
that did not happen here, because clearly, there was sufficient evidence to enable a murder charge to be left to the jury.

Also, sentencing remarks do not summarise the findings of the jury. Jury’s don’t give narrative verdicts; just guilty or not guilty.the judge is entitled to draw conclusions about what they found to have been proved from a guilty verdict although in some cases, and this is one of them, there can be matters where he or she won’t necessarily be able to infer what the jury found.

that did not happen here, because clearly, there was sufficient evidence to enable a murder charge to be left to the jury

Thank you. I agree. The evidence put forward must have been sufficient.

If it was not, there will likely be an appeal. It does seem from the reports of the case , though, that there was ample evidence to support a murder conviction.

Is this still going?!

This is one of those tough cases where one can simultaneously feel sorry for and disgusted by the person.

She clearly did something terrible and illegal and should get punished for it although, equally, she was a vulnerable teenager at the time.

There is no easy solution which is why a jury needs to hear the case and decide the facts and a judge needs to sentence based on that decision.

Mayo will have had a barrister to put her side of the case and I believe that she was offered a plea bargain which she chose not to take.

It is ridiculous to hypothesise mental illness when her barrister could easily have got expert (not internet warrior opinion) and argued this. Equally, there seem some of the mad pro choice warriors (the ones who believe pro choice includes up to the moment of birth) who are trying to extend this to include even neonaticide.

The way the system can show a degree of mercy whilst also punishing and being a deterrent is to allow her out reasonably early and to let her serve time in a soft prison where she gets a chance to study and rehabilitate.

This.
How dare they?

When she said her mum would have come round eventually, that was after the event. After her mum had said 'oh love, why didn't you tell us?'.

Beforehand she wouldn't have known that. She was clearly afraid of being a nuisance.

I'm interested to see what happens next, whether there will be an appeal or whether she'll turn out like the Bulger killers.

For me, a 15yr old giving birth silently is testament itself to a terrible situation too big for her to handle. The baby's terrible death only adds to it.

We'll see how the future judges it.

AP5Diva · Yesterday 16:55
It is quite sad to think that women who could have had a plea accepted for infanticide might be walking themselves into a murder conviction exactly becauseof the circumstances which would have made infanticide a more suitable verdict.

It is very sad. I’ve posted five screen shots (the maximum!) from the Law Commission report that recommended procedural changes because if this phenomenon in 2016. There’s more detail if you want to read the report in full.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/228782/0030.pdf

(See AP5Diva’s post to see the screen shots.)

Thank you for that.

Re: the judge telling the jury they could consider a verdict of Infanticide. This is an excerpt from the Law Commission from the screen shots you posted.

8.9
^Secondly, even when raised as a defence, the burden of proof is on the
prosecution to disprove a claim of infanticide beyond reasonable doubt^.

In my opinion the refusal to of those two jury members to give a verdict of murder, show Infanticide was not disproven beyond reasonable doubt.

Eh?

When she said her mum would have come round eventually, that was after the event. After her mum had said 'oh love, why didn't you tell us?'.

Oh come on, she wouldn't have admitted to that if she thought her mum would be raging.

If we're being honest, it's hard for every single teenage girl in this position. Even with the nicest mother, it's not a fun thing to do.

I think we just have to accept that this is the case, that her mother would have been supportive, if not shocked and disappointed initially. She admitted so herself and she'll know better to an us

Yes, for fuck's sake! So many women and girls go through this without killing their babies.

Women do... but do children?

The experience isn't the same for everyone and the things that such stress can do to the mind should not be underestimated.

After her mum had said 'oh love, why didn't you tell us?'

It’s important to note her mum said this when she had an audience. You see this sort of performative good mothering in neglectful and abusive mums when the eye of the state is on them.

Yes, I said 'women and girls. Most of us don't kill people when we are distressed and traumatised. I guess the people who do are locked away for a reason.

Thankfully it is hard to judge with confidence because it is not a common experience. (Especially not for children)

-that some women and some children can cope is great… but doesn’t mean that all have to be expected to act in a rational way.

-frightened people (even those without the complications of having just given birth) don’t all react with forethought or in ways they would approve of in normal situations.

I gave birth silently to all of mine, I was with my DD when she gave birth and she was also silent.

So a woman who said 'oh love, why didn't you tell us?' is neglectful and abusive and the one who stamped on her baby's head is innocent?

It's a mad world.

If you had read anything about Mayo’s home life and childhood, and the many ways in which she was let down, neglected and isolated by her mother, you would not think I stated that purely on what she performed for the 999 dispatcher.

Mayo’s guilt/innocence is a separate matter from that.

Yes this

Putting aside the events, Mayo's mum basically engaged in "performance parenting" to get herself off the hook from difficult questions.

My mother was the same. At home, behind closed doors she was vile and abusive, leaving me with mental scars that I have to this day despite not having seen her for 25 years.
In front of teachers or social workers she was almost Disney princess level nice and kind. Oh so supportive. I was the evil one with issues.

I suggest people read up fully on this family before believing this girl gad support and knew it

Also, even at 19, this woman is probably still not at normal adult levels of maturity.

After a difficult upbringing, followed by the trauma of birth and killing her baby, followed by the trauma of lockdown, being on bail and a court case...

I really hope she gets a lot of support in prison.

People are just inventing stuff to justify a view of this that they, for their own strange reasons, want to cling to. On both sides of the discussion. They are quite mad.