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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Helen Joyce: my concerns regarding Ireland’s plans for a draconian new hate-crime law

9 replies

IwantToRetire · 19/06/2023 19:33

... it is no coincidence that this draconian, Orwellian, Hate Crime Bill enshrines within it a circular, non-reality-based definition of “gender” or “gender identity”. Here’s that definition, in all its glory:

“‘Gender’ means the gender of a person or the gender which a person expresses as the person’s preferred gender or with which the person identifies and includes transgender and a gender other than those of male and female.”

This is pure gobbledegook, and circular to boot (a circular definition is one where the term to be defined appears in the definition, and so it never manages to get off the ground). The thing is, there’s no non-circular definition of “gender identity” that doesn’t depend on stereotypical expectations of the sexes—and they appear here in the form of “gender expression”.

As for hate, I know what it feels like to be its target. I’ve experienced serious death threats—there’s a trans-identified man in custody right now for making gruesome, sexualised threats to kill me and Kellie-Jay Keen, another campaigner for women’s rights. He’s a man who identifies as a woman and has a previous conviction for threatening another shopper in a supermarket with a claw hammer in a row over him trying to steal alcohol. He’s terrifying.

That’s hate. He has threatened publicly to cut up my face, to tear out my eyes. He’s threatened to burn down Kellie Jay’s house. And he’s not the only person to make such threats against me and other women campaigners. He’s just one of the few who was stupid enough to do it with a Twitter handle linked to a name he uses, and saying where he is based, when he’s already been convicted of violent crimes.

That’s hate. Me saying that men are men, that no man can become or be a woman, that a man who “feels like a woman” is having an entirely male experience, albeit an atypical one—that’s not. Those statements are not just true, but in some situations essential to say, in order to uphold other people’s human rights.

Free speech isn’t just for the fun of it. It’s supposed to be legally protected because it’s precious. Irish legislators are being asked to pass a law that will criminalise “hate”—undefined. Which protects “gender”, defined circularly—that is, undefined.

This will mean that nobody can talk using ordinary clear language about what I write about in my book, namely one of the worst medical scandals in history, and it’s being perpetrated on children.

https://www.thehelenjoyce.com/joyce-activated-issue-51/

(Usually her articles are behind a paywall but HJ is so worried about this legislation that this is free to read and to be shared.)

Joyce activated, issue 51

I’m putting this week’s issue in front of the paywall to make my concerns regarding Ireland’s plans for a draconian new hate-crime law widely available.

https://www.thehelenjoyce.com/joyce-activated-issue-51

OP posts:
Farmageddon · 19/06/2023 19:42

Thanks for that, I love Helen she speaks so rationally.

It's so depressing how little airtime this is getting in Ireland, most people aren't really aware of the ramifications of this law and how batshit it is. I hate how apathetic most people are over here.
I swear I look on with envy at the debates and conversations that are being had in the UK right now. Meanwhile we have barely even got a discussion going, and most major media outlets will ignore it or give a biased report.

It's going to take so long to row back on this shit.

Nousernamesleftatall · 19/06/2023 19:46

Farmageddon · 19/06/2023 19:42

Thanks for that, I love Helen she speaks so rationally.

It's so depressing how little airtime this is getting in Ireland, most people aren't really aware of the ramifications of this law and how batshit it is. I hate how apathetic most people are over here.
I swear I look on with envy at the debates and conversations that are being had in the UK right now. Meanwhile we have barely even got a discussion going, and most major media outlets will ignore it or give a biased report.

It's going to take so long to row back on this shit.

Agreed. Our government own the media now. If this was proposed 8 years there would be an outcry. Sad state of affairs as they can are untouchable and as you say most people haven’t a clue.

TheDogthatDug · 19/06/2023 20:17

So if someone identifies as a cat and a person disagrees then that is a hate crime?

IwantToRetire · 19/06/2023 20:17

Is it that main stream media dont want to deal with the complexities or maybe I mean being inundated with TRA warriors commenting.

Is there much conversation via social media?

I think I got the impression that Ireland (Government) had been "captured" and would just push through their agenda.

OP posts:
SunnyEgg · 19/06/2023 20:25

I can’t get over that definition of gender

It’s meaningless

So much for plain English

Farmageddon · 19/06/2023 20:37

SunnyEgg · 19/06/2023 20:25

I can’t get over that definition of gender

It’s meaningless

So much for plain English

If you think that's batshit, have a look at the wording of the Gender Recognition Act

Effect of gender recognition certificate generally
18. (1) Where a gender recognition certificate is issued to a person the person’s gender shall from the date of that issue become for all purposes the preferred gender so that if the preferred gender is the male gender the person’s sex becomes that of a man, and if it is the female gender the person’s sex becomes that of a woman.

I always thought legal documentation had to make sense, but apparently not.

And this is already in law!

miri1985 · 19/06/2023 20:48

An issue I have with all of this is that there is a different definition of gender in so many pieces of legislation. They seem to have been afraid to use the word sex for ages so used gender instead and now are coming up with these nonsense deifnitions of it or refusing to define it.
Theres also the upcoming referendum which would put gender into the consitution but the wording of what they want us to vote on in November hasn't been released yet (supposed to be released by the end of the month)

PorcelinaV · 19/06/2023 20:49

I have posted this before, but here is a green politician explaining things:

https://www.foxnews.com/world/irish-politician-boasts-hate-speech-bill-restrict-freedom-protect-trans-people-discomfort

"When one thinks about it, all law and all legislation is about the restriction of freedom. This is exactly what we are doing here," O’Reilly argued. "We are restricting freedom but we are doing it for the common good."

She then suggested that people should not be free to disagree with people’s identities, warning this "discomfort" is a severe hazard.

She continued, "If a person's views on other people's identities make their lives unsafe and insecure, and cause them such deep discomfort that they cannot live in peace, our job as legislators is to restrict those freedoms for the common good."

Irish politician boasts hate speech bill will ‘restrict freedom’ to protect trans people from ‘discomfort’

An Irish senator defended hate speech legislation moving through the Irish government by arguing it would merely be another law restricting freedom for the greater good.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/irish-politician-boasts-hate-speech-bill-restrict-freedom-protect-trans-people-discomfort

PorcelinaV · 19/06/2023 20:57

The Green Party here are maybe just as scary:

RR535 The Green Party would push for root and branch efforts to address transphobia in society, initiating public education programs both in schools and wider society. Current anti-discrimination legislation should be reviewed so as to provide protection to all trans individuals. Current exemptions to anti-discrimination legislation should be scrapped

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