Nothing to worry about - Another Guardian / Observer article

[Justme56]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/18/there-is-so-much-more-for-us-to-worry-about-than-men-masquerading-as-women-to-access-single-sex-spaces

Only people who follow Kathryn on Twitter can respond so thought I’d pop it here.

"Excluding anyone on the basis of biological difference demonstrates a spectacular failure of empathy, worse, it reduces women to their reproductive systems, which is something we should be trying to move on from."

Hmm, not sure exactly how this idea deals with transwomen in womens' sports, Kathryn? Or perhaps she has not really considered that at all.

We need to be moving on from biology......by pretending it doesn't exist, or if it does it is an oppression.

This whole view is inherently anti-female because what it is seeking to do is transcend sex - to the point that a woman is nothing but a free floating theoretical concept that anyone can adopt or play around with.

Women are to liberate themselves by not being either women or female anymore. This is the end point of certain strands of feminism.

Please do tell us Kathryn Bromwich, how does a woman or girl tell the difference between a predatory or abusive male who is trans and one who is not trans?

I've asked a version of this question on the IOPC thread. Still not had an answer.

Retweeted by RMW, Ben Bradshaw etc....

How lovely to have the men tell us what we are allowed to worry about and what we're not

"I have spent a long time thinking about identity: a funny, slippery thing. Mine has always been in flux: I was born in Italy to an English father and an Italian mother, and lived in Vienna for most of my teenage years. In Italy, I was seen as English, in Austria I was seen as Italian; over here my accent confuses people (it has been described as “home counties with the odd continental twang”). Given my diagnosis at 15, much of the discourse around trans rights and what constitutes a “real woman” is personally painful. Excluding certain individuals because of anatomical difference feels regressive, cruel, fearful of the other. Growing up, I could not join in with my friends’ conversations about periods, birth control, the morning-after pill – something that caused me a great deal of shame, suffering and confusion. But is that all being a woman is? If trans women are not women, according to these rules, I’m not either; though if I’m not a woman, what exactly am I?"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/08/how-long-covid-forced-me-to-confront-my-past-and-my-identity

she is, of course, still a woman even if she cannot have children. She is a heterosexual woman who was also sexually assaulted because she was a woman.

Its so stupid as well because whilst women are, in almost every country, more at risk of sexual violence, men and boys can also be victims. In fact one of the most toxic aspects off some cultures is the idea that men abused by other men are in some ways feminised because of it. For that guardian article to make sense you either have to pretend male victims of sexual violence don't exist or buy into the extremely toxic and damaging narrative.

Women and girls are however more at risk of sexual violence (and a degree of fear of sexual violence and consequences is something most women do have in common). This is to a large part due to their biology which makes them vulnerable in a number of ways. And can't be identified into or out of.

Exactly.

It's just so very very boring. How is this something new? A new angle? New information? New opinion? Nope, nothing new AT ALL. Next week I am going to write a rehash of a load of untrue myths that have already been debunked years ago by observable things in reality and expect to get paid for it.

OK, so the context that Kathryn had MRKH syndrome makes a difference here, I feel.

It's totally understandable that someone in her situation wouldn't like the definition of a woman as a person with a uterus.

The fact remains, however, that all women have in common is their female biology.

If you want a complete definition, the closest I can get to one is this:

"An adult human of the biological sex class which, in the absence of a disorder of sexual development or other infertility, has the potential to gestate and give birth to offspring between the menarche and the menopause."

A woman with MRKH syndrome doesn't have a (complete or functioning) uterus because of a problem with her reproductive development. A trans woman doesn't have a uterus because they are male. If you are male, not having a uterus is a fundamental and unremarkable part of your design, not an unusual medical condition.

Whilst feeling "othered" from womanhood yourself due to your DSD might make you reluctant to "other" others who wish to be included, the reality is that the category of "women" still makes sense and is still a coherent thing when it includes women with DSDs. It does not make sense when it includes male people. Because then...what is a woman?

Good God this is basically just a long essay of 'Me, me, me, me, me. Waah, waah, waah, waah, waah!'.

These people are so fucking tedious and self obsessed.

Rightsraptor · Today 12:57

So no discernible adverse impact from self ID in Ireland, huh? Tell that to the women in Limerick jail.

Yes, I noticed that, too. Or the teenaged girls in girls Gaelic Football teams, getting smashed by full grown men.

Along with the "66% of transw have been raped, or sexually assaulted" line. And using the situation in America and pretending that it's the same in the UK and Ireland.

There's very little in her article which would pass even the most perfunctory fact check.

It is interesting that she did not mention her genetic condition in the newer article to put her views into context, particularly as she writes about her life openly in another.

It is more surprising then that she is unable to emphasise that women, who are more vulnerable such as those with medical conditions or those with trauma, would want single sex spaces.

ChatGPT could have dialled that in. Maybe it did.

Why so desperate to orchestrate the work everyone else does? You want to focus on a different cause, go for it. But something doesn't have to directly negatively impact evey single woman on earth in order for that thing to disproportionately negatively impact women and/or be a locus for strutural and systemic marginalization and exploitation on the basis of sex - and therefore potentially be a feminist issue and good target for feminist action. And some people profit from actions and ideas that are deleterious and dangerous to women as a class - those people's actions aren't "feminist" just because they're done by a woman. The entire claim/supposition seems really elitist.

Ahhh for an edit button. My last post should have said she can’t ‘empathise’, as in show compassion for other women.

What unites us?

Please tell me I'm not the only woman that uses a public toilet and has come across another woman struggling to cool down after having a flush//trying to get an overpriced tampon out of a jammed machine as our period has unexpectedly started/trying to wash a blood stain out of clothing/taking a few minutes to calm down after or before a PMS emotional outburst.

Even if I hadn't, I've certainly used the Ladies' due to all the above.

The empathy from eye contact, nods or offers to help, just being in that tiny refuge where we all have shared experiences unites us in some small way. This is where MY womanhood resides. This is where MY empathy lies. Not with a person of the opposite sex who will never know what it actually feels like to be female, nor will ever care. Not with a person of the opposite sex who literally has the balls to trample over the feelings of any female uncomfortable with him sharing a space reserved for women and girls.

These shared hormonal experiences alone are something a man in any form will never know. Any male in a Ladies changes this dynamic completely. It introduces fear. We all just wash up as fast as possible avoiding eye contact and leave. Just like men do in the Mens.

Cameras planted, penises flashed, sexual assaults taking place - these have all happened and been reported on too many times already. Opening single-sex spaces will be like opening the floodgates to these becoming a daily occurrence.

My brother is now the father of three daughters and has finally understood that the two sexes are completely different. He was verbally abused for saying to friends (by the wife of a friend) that as a teen he and all his friends would have happily 'become' trans just to get free access to see girls changing. The males in the group all agreed. He says it's a horny teen boy thing. He defies any straight male to honestly say they wouldn't have wanted the opportunity to do so themselves.

I agree gender and sexuality are fluid but biological sex can't be. KB needs to stop lecturing us to 'be kind'. The tide is turning and the vast majority of women (and men), most of whom are unwilling to say so due to fear of the rabid abuse people who are have been subjected to, are fed up to the back teeth of having 'be kind' being rammed down our throats.

This article is spot on. Cannot understand all the focus on such a non issue when there’s massive issues that need dealing with

“But the main threat to women comes overwhelmingly from men, not from trans women, who should not be penalised for the actions of predatory men. As a result, trans women and non-binary people are being excluded from single-sex spaces, putting them at a greatly increased risk of violence.”

If you translate this it doesn’t sound half as convincing: “but the main threat to women comes overwhelmingly from men who believe they are men, not from men who believe they are women, who should not be penalised for the actions of predatory men who believe they are men. As a result ,men who don’t believe they are men are being excluded from women only spaces , putting them at a greatly increased risk of violence from men who believe they are men”

What utter bollocks.

I like to read opposing viewpoints to understand the other side and interrogate my own thoughts but this is witless.

Dana Rivers, a violent transwoman who murdered a lesbian couple and their 19-year-old son, has just been sent to a women's prison. Who is more in need of protection than the women in that prison with that person?

WHY should feminism centre people who reject their womanhood or claim a womanhood that isn't theirs?

Exactly. The fact that she has ('can have') an underdeveloped uterus is because she is female. And therefore a woman.

Growing up, I could not join in with my friends’ conversations about periods, birth control, the morning-after pill – something that caused me a great deal of shame, suffering and confusion.

I can understand this, but I don't think any boy would be confused or ashamed for not having a period....

The removal of the legal definition of woman is a minor issue?

no more women’s rights are a non issue?

how Lovely to have such a privileged life where you’ll never ever need a safe single sex space or service for women

I hope you never have cause to need a mental health or hospital ward, prison or domestic violence refuge, where you wish to be away from men!

If it was a non issue you wouldn't have made the effort to come here purely in order to dismiss it as an issue, would you?

What she wrote when she tweeted the article. As though anything in it was original. She really need not have bothered. Heard it all before.

https://twitter.com/kathryn42/status/1670363928407187456?s=20