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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Smegg Wallace

143 replies

FinallyPeakedNow · 17/06/2023 13:40

So I have been quietly considering all the trans stuff for years. Trying to see both sides. Acknowledging that my best friend's policing of my use of her trans kid's pronouns is just how the world is these days, and that my feeling that it is a devastating tragedy that they have removed their breasts and taken hormones that have made their voice break and hair fall out is simply the WRONG feeling and borderline transphobic.
It's been a struggle. I have always hated drag, couldn't put my finger on why. And then Masterchef reveals that they are featuring a drag act called Cheryl Hole and it happened. I peaked. I felt myself resist the instinct to feel that this name is deeply misogynistic, that if I was Cheryl Fernandez-Versini I would be forced to pretend I found it flattering, even if it's essentially being reduced to a hole so that people can laugh at the fact that women have holes.
I nearly peaked when I read that stupid university definition of lesbians as 'non-men attracted to non-men,' but I couldn't have had enough time to think about it then.
I just want it to stop now, please. I hate that left wing comedians I admire are all team trans. I hate that admitting I'm a terf puts me in the same box as a bunch of awful right-wingers, but also, terfs are my people. This is it now.

So, to my question:

WOULD THE BBC's MASTERCHEF PUT ON A MALE DRAG ACT CALLED SMEGG WALLACE?

I am going to get a baldy head cap and paint a dick on it and see if they bite. Who's with me?

I might write a letter of complaint to the BBC I'm that annoyed

OP posts:
NotHavingIt · 18/06/2023 10:08

Rather than moving on from shallow consumerism and the marketisation of the body, we seem to have become ever more entrenched in it; in fact I'd suggest gender ideology, itself, stems from a post modernistic theory which itself is a product of the marketplace. -which seeks the freedom for an individual to create or purchase their 'best true self' . It is just over-hyped, Californified marekting bullshit.

NotHavingIt · 18/06/2023 10:09

marketing

Farmageddon · 18/06/2023 10:11

I think it's important to move away from this damaging idea that right = bad, left = good. That's part of what has gotten us into this shitshow in the first place.

If I agree with something that Jordan Peterson says, that doesn't mean I automatically want to be his friend and agree with everything he believes. Such immature thinking.
That sort of tribalism and shutting people down is one of the reasons that others are so afraid of saying what they think - 'oh, I can't possibly listen to him, he's right wing'. But really, you're never going to find a single person in this world who agrees with absolutely everything you think.

Especially when what we are talking about is not just opinion, but fact. It is biological fact that men cannot be women, that humans can't change sex. That's not a right or left wing issue, it's not even a moral issue (no matter how much some people try to claim it is), it's just reality. And ignoring that reality has consequences.

If someone is going to fight you on reality, and then claim the high ground because they vote Labour and read the Guardian, that's not coming from a place of rationality, but something else.

NotHavingIt · 18/06/2023 10:11

Floisme · 18/06/2023 10:03

I'm sad about it too op. Pretty much all the faith I had in the left has gone.

The Left villed the void for many in a society bereft of its former religious convictions. It offered the hope of a better world.

WandaWomblesaurus · 18/06/2023 10:13

Babdoc · 18/06/2023 09:33

OP, my DD is not just “not right wing” - she is the Women’s Officer for the Edinburgh branch of the Communist Party!
DD is so completely terf that she writes and performs a long running parody of Dylan Mulvaney on YouTube, including a musical which also mocks Dr Gallagher, the US surgeon who performs mastectomies on teenagers. Have a look at “Day 69 of boyhood”.

Omg that's your dd? She's fucking EPIC.

NotHavingIt · 18/06/2023 10:17

The Labour party was formed in 1900 - from a coalition of trade unionists and socialists who had been galvanised by the harsh conditions many suffered in the factories and cities of the industrial revolution. It also had a big moment after the Second World War with the creation of the NHS - to compensate the people for the privations and sufferings of two world wars.

BaronMunchausen · 18/06/2023 10:23

OldGardinia · 18/06/2023 09:24

@BaronMunchausen
"The Guardian and the Independent/i have been particularly shameful. Women's rights should be their territory!"

I'm sorry but this is a little sickening. Women's rights should not be one political wing's territory - it is fundamental across the spectrum to all ethical people. The implication above being that the Right lack ethics. I wonder that some posters don't realise that this forum isn't a Left Wing forum and that these hold your nose attitudes are being done right in front of the people you're talking about. Reminds me of a time someone was talking in a group about "the gays" completely oblivious to the gay people around them.

But aside from the continuous disparagement at some of us, the thing that most bothers me about the above statement is because I think it's made from the mindset of wanting "our" faction to be the ones who are champions on fighting this. Because it's identified as a good cause and if someone else succeeds at it they will get the credit. IT IS NOT ABOUT THE CREDIT.

And if you're about to say that's not where you're coming from, fine - I'll accept it if you say it's not but I invite you to reflect a few moments and ask yourself if there isn't that underlying it. I move in various degrees of Right Wing circles and a lot of places where there's a lot of Left Wing representation too. And barring degree of "told you so", mostly what I pick up the Right is an attitude of "finally these groups are realising the situation and acting - together we'll actually be able to stop this abuse." Whereas from the Left what I see a lot of is: "oh, those awful right wing people mustn't be allowed to be the ones who win this". I'm sorry but I do.

I feel for the OP who now feels politically homeless and the horror of clicking on Daily Mail links, it's challenging to question ones attitudes. I especially feel for her at feeling like she'll lose her friends over this because my Left Wing friends took a very exclusionary attitude to people who wouldn't share their beliefs and I lost good friends through not agreeing with them and that hurt immeasurably and brought on significant depression. I wish I could help OP but know there's probably little I can do - it's very difficult to forge one's own path of beliefs rather than go along with a group.

But it would be nice if some here could stop talking about us (right wing people) as if we're the wrong people to fight for women's and children's rights. Nobody is the wrong person to fight for these things. The rights of the individual are the foundation of women's rights, children's rights, human rights.

Historically liberals and leftists have campaigned for women's rights. That's not to say that others haven't too, or that the territory is exclusive - just that they have. And should. If your politics is driven by a desire for genuine social justice and a fairer world order, women's rights are a prerequisite. They should be the first thing on the agenda, the sine qua non.

If you are driven by a commitment to individual and market freedom then you might well arrive at the same place in relation to women's rights. To my mind that centering of the individual and his/her freedom also underpins gender ideology and identity politics - which prioritises the individual and who they are, rather than the collective and what they do.

That obviously doesn't mean all people on the right are or should be TRAs! But prior to the arrival of gender ideology from the USA I don't think it would have been controversial to see gender stereotyping as the domain of conservative traditionalists and expect the left to be at the forefront of challenging them. That this hasn't happened is for me massive betrayal. These are broad trends and probably there is an element of team-think there, but for me what's being trashed is the vision of a fairer world.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 18/06/2023 10:26

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 18/06/2023 09:38

And that because black smoke came from the conclave of cardinals (signifying they hadn't yet agreed on who to elect as pope) it was racist to report it.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/david-lammy-mocked-for-fuming-at-racist-bbc-after-report-on-sistine-chapel-s-black-and-white-smoke-8532676.html

He also thinks that ULEZ isn't a problem for tradesmen, they can just get on the Tube with all their kit and equipment.

‘Thinks’ may be a bit charitable here

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 18/06/2023 10:28

‘Thinks’ may be a bit charitable here

In the absence of any other word....Lammy's the classic example of not engaging brain (or such brain as he has) before opening gob wide enough to put his foot in it.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 18/06/2023 10:35

Re right wing / left wing : I just want point out that the first woman MP in UK was elected on a Conservative ticket, selected and promoted by the party (not dissimilar to the first Jewish Prime Minister) .

‘o that’s different’ ….maybe. Or may it is all just ‘Divide and Conquer’. The Left/Right terminology relates to the seating positions in the French Revolutionary Assembly. Most of them ended up on the guillotine, ‘right’ or ‘left’.

Floisme · 18/06/2023 10:45

NotHavingIt · 18/06/2023 10:11

The Left villed the void for many in a society bereft of its former religious convictions. It offered the hope of a better world.

Yes good point, and the way I've come to feel about the left recently is comparable to how I feel about believing in God - that in many ways I would like to but that I just don't. Once the faith collapses there's really nothing left.

lady69 · 18/06/2023 11:06

Right wing these days to some seems to mean anyone to the right of Corbyn 🤷🏻‍♀️. Those aren't “right wingers”. Terfs are largely left wingers, centrists and centre-right. Truly “right wing” are the equivalent of anti-fa on the far left. Don’t let Twitter deceive you. Even the current useless crop of conservatives are very much small c. That overton window has shifted quite a lot in the past 20 years. You’re not aligning with nazis, don’t worry.

EdithStourton · 18/06/2023 11:18

I'm enjoying @OldGardinia posts. As I said on another thread, I have a lot to do with rural Tories and most of them are decent human beings. I might disagree with some aspects of their politics, but (as a bit of a wet centrist) I'm sick of the endless monstering of the Right. God knows, the Left has made enough enormous errors in its time. Wanting to build Utopia doesn't get you off the hook for millions of corpses.

Sowing division, where it needn't be sown, is destructive of society. This while gender issue is one where those on both Left and Right who have seen through it need to come together.

I think that was why I so enjoyed seeing Julie Bindel and Douglas Murray on the same podcast.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 18/06/2023 11:21

I think it's very easy to fall for the idea that because feminists[1] tend [2] to be left wing, then the left wing must be feminist. Which is very much not the case - the left as a whole has always had a strong strand of misogyny and 'after the revolution, love'. Sure, we'll look at women's rights - once the important things have been fixed.

And quite apart from beliefs not coming in unbreakable.bundles, to view it all as left-right is to ignore the other important axis of liberal-authoritarian. All of politics recently has moved a long way to the latter. The with-us-or-against-us of the left is as authoritarian and oppresive as the party currently banning protests.

When it comes to.The Guardian though, thinking that women's rights should be 'their territory' is not necessarily a left-right thing, but about their history. At one point - when Jill Tweedy was there and for a while afterwards building on her work - they were at the forefront of covering women's issues (and not using that phrase to.mean fashion and recipes). In recent times The Observer has upheld that legacy rather better than the main paper.

[1] At least for those of us whose first mental image when the word is mentioned is of the second wave.

[2] Although certainly not exclusively. And if you look back to first wave, the political spread was much wider - even if you limit your sample to the Pankhust family alone you have the whole range from fascist to communist.

BlueIbex · 18/06/2023 11:27

OP, I'm with you. I also peaked fairly recently (in the last few months) and it really does change the way you see everything. I'm well aware that a lot of my friends would absolutely crucify me for "believing" in the reality of sex - indeed, I recently had a horrible argument with a sibling after I gently countered their assertion that "puberty blockers are a harmless pause button".

However - since (ashamedly quietly) voicing my thoughts about all of this with some friends and family, testing the waters as it were - I've realised that a lot of people agree with us, but are too scared to voice it. I think it goes back to the groupthink mentality. Certainly, I've also witnessed cognitive dissonance when I've brought the topic up: one person said, "Oh of course sex is real - there are men and women, and that's the way it is down to chromosomes... But it's not fair to say that someone who has transitioned isn't what they want to be." I think we've had the TWAW etc. messaging hammered so solidly that it will take a lot (and is taking a lot!) to re-establish reality in people's minds.

DemiColon · 18/06/2023 11:36

FinallyPeakedNow · 17/06/2023 22:54

I suppose I am talking about it being a shame that I am now aligning with right wingers in general, those people whose knee jerk reaction is to reject difference and be afraid of diversity. This is part of the problem, really - on the surface trans ideology looks very much like gay rights or acceptance of other minorities. It's a shame that on this subject I will be standing alongside racists and people who are anti trans because they are, in fact, bigots. But I'm too sad and angry about it. And I have a daughter who is non gender conforming (and possibly a lesbian) and I'm terrified she will be sucked in.

You mean right wingers who include, in your country, two female PMs, a non-white PM, Kemi Badenoch, people like Douglas Murray (gay), Andrew Sullivan, etc? Or in my country, the first (and only) female PM and the first black political party leader candidate? Or in the US Condoleeza Rice, Vicram Mansharamani, Thomas Sowell....

You get the idea.

Maybe the problem is that you have believed what is a very reductive progressive myth about conservatives?

Santiagopink · 18/06/2023 11:46

TWETMIRF · 18/06/2023 09:23

Andy is the sexy one, not Dan.

I really hope that they don't go all out transtastic. It seems to be fairly low level at the moment.

I like Dan's yeti obsession and weird accent. You can have Andy, blonde geeks aren't my type, I like dark hairy cavemen (yetis)!! Yes they're not actively pushing the agenda, they just act like its totally normal to accept twaw, and I just quietly eyeroll every time I spot it. I can overlook it, only a few years ago I would have said the same.
As an aside, P!nk is getting closer to coming out as a terf. She has a few hidden suffragette flags in her set, and introduced a song in exasperation of how she gets accused of being trans because she's buff. She actually used the term "queenis" as in i get accused of having a queenis, then rolled her eyes. Got a huge fucking cheer for it. Then the video to accompany the song has suffragettes featured, and loads of original rainbow flags with not a trans flag in sight. This gives me hope that people are en masse becoming more familiar with the fundamentals of gender identity politics.

WandaWomblesaurus · 18/06/2023 11:49

@DemiColon we are often told on the left that any minority that works for the right is some kind of class or race traitor.

Which is quite classist and racist now I think about it.

WandaWomblesaurus · 18/06/2023 11:53

I think a lot of us humble along reading and absorbing the politic of our group and of what we perceive to be shorthand for right actions, morality etc, by outsourcing our decisions to the leading few. Something that this subject has brought up for so many women now in such a vivid, immediate and painful way is how fickle, dangerous, stupid or creepy some of these shafter politicians are, no matter which side they are on.

Musomama1 · 18/06/2023 11:59

OP I'm a hitherto open minded lefty too but turns out that my pretty mediocre boundaries derail me into the right wing camp 🤣🤣🤣

Cheryl Hole is beyond the pale for me too on teatime telly. Reminds me of Kenny Everett's Cupid Stunt, but that was post watershed adult comedy.

Re Kae Tempest. I'm bracing myself for Courtney Barnett declaring herself NB. My take is though that ultimately people can think of themselves as they want to, but policing of language and reality based facts of everyone else is not on.

OldGardinia · 18/06/2023 14:28

@BaronMunchausen
I enjoyed your reply to my post. Also The Adventures of Baron Munchausen is one of my favourite films! :) I owe you a proper response which will unfortunately take me a little time. What I will say in brief is that for all the theory-crafting about what you would expect from the Right based on your perception of our gender stereotyping, the reality is that the trans movement hasn't erupted from the Right. It's been very much more nursed into its current form by the right. When theory and reality don't match up, it is theory that must change. But this may read more confrontational than I intend. Your response was interesting and I want to reply properly to it in a bit. I can't resist pointing out right now in response to your comment about history that back in the day the Spectator was calling for an end to slavery in the USA and boycotting of their goods, whilst the Guardian was writing apologetics for slavery and arguing for its continuance. There were definitely female slaves. Okay, I'll stop myself until I can reply properly but I hope at least it's accepted that "right wing" =/= "bad person".

That leads me onto a more general comment about my own experience. When I was young I recall that I had a vague awareness of how people tended to become conservative or right wing with age (in my mind at the time they were probably the same thing). And I was determined that I myself wouldn't lose my principles like so many others. And indeed I don't think I have. If anything my principles are stronger now than they were back then. But what caught me off guard was not that what I valued changed, but my belief in what actually worked changed. And so my shift to being a self-described right-winger isn't a shift in values, but, imo, a shift in approach.

@Allthegoodnamesarechosen goodnamesarechosen
"Re right wing / left wing : I just want point out that the first woman MP in UK was elected on a Conservative ticket, selected and promoted by the party (not dissimilar to the first Jewish Prime Minister) ."

When Thatcher became leader of the Conservative party all the Labour members in the local council office were celebrating - quite literally celebrating. Because, word for word: "Britain will never elect a woman as prime minister". Alice Weidel leader of the AfD in Germany, the prime minister of Serbia (name escapes me) - both strong female leaders and right wing.

@lady69
"Truly “right wing” are the equivalent of anti-fa on the far left."

Hardly!

@Binturongs
Great post. Gave me a couple of things to think about. Regarding this bit in particular it reminds me of something: " think it's very easy to fall for the idea that because feminists[1] tend [2] to be left wing, then the left wing must be feminist. Which is very much not the case - the left as a whole has always had a strong strand of misogyny and 'after the revolution, love'. Sure, we'll look at women's rights - once the important things have been fixed."

For a little time in the USA the Progressive Left courted the euphoric atheists. Which was far more of an American thing than UK but people will recall lots of Richard Dawkins on TV, "The God Delusion" in bookshops, etc. Well given the influence of religion in the USA and its entwinement with the Right (not actually always the case in the USA's history - the alliance came later), this seemed like a good recruiting and media base for the Progressive Left. Which it was for a very brief period before they realised that whilst the Euphoric Atheists certainly did lay into the Christian Right in America, they were also equally enthusiastic about laying into Islam, talking about Mohammed's nine year old wife, etc. And they were promptly dropped from the Progressive Left like a hot potato. Which is not a tiny part why their movement vanished as abruptly as it appeared. My point is that there's really a couple of Lefts. There's the well-intentioned and there's the, well, other side. And I feel they use women's rights in exactly the same way. And that actually ties right back into the topic at hand because they're not getting the mileage out of that they used to. Oh, some. But not as much as they get from the new hotness of trans rights. Much like these people did a quick bit of maths and said: "Making ourselves the party that speaks for Muslims gives us more power than a bunch of atheists in fedoras", they now, I believe, make the same calculations that they can ride along on the trans movement more than they can on the women's movement which is why women are getting the worse end of the stick in any conflict between the two. It's cynical but most powerful people are powerful people first and whatever else they label themselves as second. (And that applies to any 'wing'). Plus the trans movement knows which side its bread is buttered. It's dependent on its powerful backers in a way that women simply are not. That makes them loyal.

(Footnote, I don't think anybody ever asked Muslims - who are mostly pretty conservative people - whether they wanted Left Wing politicians and talking heads to be their voice, but c'est de la politiques).

Okay. I am self-described Right Wing. My own bias is probably showing in this post and whilst I will happily debate Right vs. Left in great detail, to do so would detract from what actually matters here - that people of different general political backgrounds can come together and deal with what we all know is wrong. There will be differences - Right Wing feminism is much more focused on individual rights and old school equal opportunity. Left Wing feminism is more focused on equity and changing society. But I think some things are so basically essential to women's rights that there should be no barrier to co-operation. And I'm really pleased to see this happening more and more. All sorts of things are used to divide us because if we're fighting each other we're not fighting Them.™

OldGardinia · 18/06/2023 14:29

@Musomama1
"Cheryl Hole is beyond the pale for me too on teatime telly. Reminds me of Kenny Everett's Cupid Stunt, but that was post watershed adult comedy."

The thing with Kenny Everett though, is his comedy was all done in the best possible taste.

EdithStourton · 18/06/2023 14:45

WandaWomblesaurus · 18/06/2023 11:49

@DemiColon we are often told on the left that any minority that works for the right is some kind of class or race traitor.

Which is quite classist and racist now I think about it.

Many moons ago I had a neighbour who had moved out from Dagenham with her factory-worker husband into a socially mixed large village/ small town. The Labour candidate canvassed her and she told him that no, sorry, love, I'm voting Conservative.

He told her she was voting against her class and should vote Labour, at which she monumentally lost her shit (she never was a patient soul), vowed never to vote Labour ever ever again and told anyone who would listen, including my mother, what a patronising plonker he was.

I was probably about 12. It was my introduction to class analysis.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 18/06/2023 15:13

most powerful people are powerful people first and whatever else they label themselves as second. (And that applies to any 'wing')

Absolutely!

Ofcourseshecan · 18/06/2023 15:56

Hagosaurus · 17/06/2023 22:30

Welcome to the club - and I think it’s worth reiterating that the only people who equate terfy women with right wing despots are TRA’s. Gender identity supports individuals to colonise and devalue community assets, to the detriment of roughly half the population - it is much more hard right-wing than left. I’m consistently surprised by politician’s inability to grasp this.

Gender identity supports individuals to colonise and devalue community assets, to the detriment of roughly half the population

Thanks for expressing that so clearly and succinctly, Hagosaurus. When people call genderism ‘left wing’, I never fail to point out it is fundamentally right wing — privileging the individual over the community and ignoring the public good. You have expressed it better!

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