Jailing a mother of three - WTF

[Capitalismwantsyou]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/12/woman-in-uk-jailed-for-28-months-over-taking-abortion-pills-after-legal-time-limit

I have heard everything people like you have to say on this issue too. And I'm not interested either.

But you don't get to pretend that a late term abortion is anything other than barbaric.

Late term abortions are really a very different deal from early ones (before 12 weeks). If you ever find yourself pregnant and aren't sure you want to be, please get advice and make a decision quickly. The 24 week legal limit isn't something you want to get anywhere near if you can possibly help it. People should be aware of that.

That's not tue! The majority of late term abortions they induce , I had one at 20 weeks . I don't know anyone who was given surgical intervention for a late term abortion other than when the placenta doesn't come away naturally.

The women in this case brought on a stillbirth, what tissue do you think remained other than possibly retained placenta that would mean she needed surgical intervention

@Isthisexpected

Tragically yes it's true. A Google search will confirm if you doubt me.

It's not try at all, you are showing your agenda here

@MakesMeFeelSad What agenda?! The truth?!

I wish people would stop using the emotive and misapplied term “forced birth”. The baby was close to full-term and would have to have been born one way or the other. The only question was whether it would have been a live birth or a stillbirth.

Does anyone know if it's still possible to get abortion pills via an online consultation or was that only a lockdown thing? It does seem risky for them to be prescribed just taking a woman's word for the date of her last period and no physical examination or ultrasound.

It's absolutely not torn limb from limb! You take pills to kill the baby/ foetus and then they induce you. I had a VERY late term abortion of a very much wanted, very much loved child- he had a condition that was not compatible to life (he'd have died within hours of having him, if he'd have lived to full term) which doctors failed to pick up on in early scans. It was awful and obviously traumatic, but I laboured and birthed him dead. I couldn't have coped mentally with carrying him another two months knowing he was not going to live anyway. My child was aborted but certainly not torn limb from limb.

Personally I do think this woman deserves sentence. And jail time

It is in public interest to treat this criminally as she has put at risk the already much debated abortion laws in this country, which if changed would mean women like me being forced to carry to term (I'd have killed myself . I'm certain I would have) the to term abortion laws are not to support what she has done. They are for cases (vanishingly rare) that are justifiable and desperate. Through this woman's actions once more there is public debate which will potentially undermine women's currents rights and access.

Your agenda is still showing.

I don’t pretend anything. I don’t care about the unborn baby as much as the mother. It’s as simple as that. She’s more important.

So women who have children should never be sent to jail? The "poor woman" killed her baby at an unacceptably late stage. Maybe she should have thought about her children beforehand.

@TooOldForThisNonsense I disagree entirely.

In the vast majority of cases where an abortion happens, the woman had the choice before she had sex. Everyone knows that sex can result in a pregnancy.

She didn't though, she went into labour which has been clearly reported. So no, the child wasn't torn limb from limb.

The saddest part is if she was struggling then late term abortions can be legally approved if there is a risk of severe harm to the mental health of the woman in continuing with the pregnancy, this could have been an option.

Sure, but what is your point? Do you think that no woman should ever have sex unless they actively want a baby? Or do you think they should be forced to carry a foetus against their will should contraception fail?

What does “innocence” have to do with anything?

late term abortion is actually legal in this country in some circumstances. It has nothing to do with “innocence”.

And if the baby is “innocent” do you somehow think the mother is not innocent? On what basis do you think that, if so?

Personhood doesn’t begin legally until birth. There has to be a line somewhere.

She knowingly broke the law, and lied to obtain drugs to induce the stillbirth of a viable 32-34 week foetus. She had even googled whether you could go to prison for aborting a 30 week foetus. She knew what she was doing. She had known she was pregnant since the previous December and this was in May. She had sought an abortion before lockdown but did not go through with it.

I'm pro-choice, but she had had her chance to choose and did not take it, then chose to do something she knew to be illegal later on. It's not an impulsive decision - she didn't buy the drugs and take straight away, she had to wait for the post etc.

At the stage she was at she had to give birth. There was no alternative at that size. She chose to make sure it didn't come out alive.

Do I think a custodial sentence is helpful? No. Is it right for her kids? Of course not. But the judge followed the law, which she knew when she broke it. The judge can't let someone who broke the law off freely just because she has kids. That isn't how it works. Judge gave her what they could given the sentencing guidelines.

I am militantly. pro choice and the mother always comes before a child in utero for me. So I don’t think she should have been jailed. I think her mental health must have been incredibly poor to have made the decision. She obviously had a lot to deal with and didn’t feel she could cope with anymore. Perhaps her alternative was killing herself and her child along with her?

So? What does that have to do with anything? So women should only ever have sex if they plan to keep a resultant pregnancy? Thank goodness the law disagrees with you.

disagree if you like, I couldn’t give a monkeys.

drpet49 · Today 16:14
Binjob118 · Today 16:11

She purposely killed someone. Many would think her treatment was lenient. The law does usually punish such behaviour.

“This. I am pro choice but killing a 32-34 week old baby is awful. A jail term is appropriate.”

Agree with these posters.

My baby was born at around this gestation. My baby wasn’t just a foetus. She was a baby who needed very little intervention to live and thrive. My bump was a proper bump. It was quite clear I was in the advanced stages of pregnancy. What this woman did is no different to someone who kills the baby at birth, IMO. It’s only different because the corner ruled that the baby in this case never took an independent breath.

Pro-choice within the limits of the law.

Late term abortions ARE legal. The only difference is this woman aborted a healthy foetus - legally the foetus can only be aborted if there is a threat to the mother or baby's life or severe disability.

There isn't a clear line drawn as to when an abortion becomes illegal - so really here we're just arguing about the details.

Personally, I don't think there should be one law for healthy foetuses and one law for disabled foetuses. Women should be able to end their pregnancy for any reason at any point.

@TooOldForThisNonsense

so now babies (born/unborn) aren't considered as innocent? 🤦🏼‍♀️ It is relevant because that human life has not been given a voice/say/autonomy themselves yet others are arguing about the "personhood of the mother" therefore a reasonable counter response is to highlight the personhood of an innocent unborn child...this is because I value both lives.

Both surgical and medical abortions exist and some may not fall into the category of requiring a surgical abortion. Generally speaking late term abortions are surgical...this is not a lie nor am I spreading some kind of agenda.

I have no doubt about whether this woman in the article was in a horrendous dilemma and was tormented by the situation. What she did was still wrong, and she deserves the sentence given.

I will be writing to my MP re this case. An appalling, inhumane decision to jail this mother. No public interest served. Late term abortion is so unusual in this country, that when it happens it happens for good reason.
I don't consider it my position to sit in judgement on desperate women, although many on this thread clearly do, and I can't describe the contempt I feel for those people tbh.
A woman's personhood and bodily autonomy should come before those of her unborn foetus or baby, and we're on a very slippery slope with this judgement

What percentage of abortions after 20 weeks in the UK are surgical?