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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kathleen Stock at Oxford Union?

54 replies

Lilifer · 03/06/2023 10:13

Is it up on You Tube yet? I cannot see it and usually the Union posts up the talk immediately after??

Dying to see it. Love the Doc and am so glad she got to have her time at the Union despite Ris & Co trying to have it shut down.

OP posts:
ArabeIIaScott · 05/06/2023 21:05

SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

princessleah1 · 05/06/2023 21:12

That was was great. Well done those students.

WarriorN · 05/06/2023 21:25

Very true mal. Oops I'm being a bit harsh!

PurpleBugz · 05/06/2023 21:25

I kinda like that she's so moderate because being too 'extreme' would alienate people potentially before they look critically at the situation.

I do agree with @IcakethereforeIam that dignity was completely missed out. Also same sex is required for some religions.

Though I think she did say this in her book? Not sure now as I've read a few recently

maltravers · 05/06/2023 21:33

I hate public speaking Warrior so I’m feeling sympathetic. He was going on a bit though!

AlisonDonut · 05/06/2023 22:03

IcakethereforeIam · 05/06/2023 19:24

I think I disagree with her on one of the early points, if tw 'magically' became harmless to women, they'd be okay in single sex spaces. Because objections rest on at least two planks, safety and dignity. I'm being nitpicky though because safety has been, is being and will always be compromised by allowing access to men who claim to be trans.

@AlisonDonut my YouTube threw this in my face. I didn't even have to look for it. Do you think it's being mass reported on by the usuals?

No. If you go to their page the last visible upload was 4 days ago.

Datun · 05/06/2023 22:30

Yes dignity was missed out. And my personal bug bear, that women are being used by this ideology. Their presence in the spaces are crucial, it's what makes the space appealing.

The students are utterly focused on the trans person in the equation. They can't drag their eyes off them.

I don't think it's an accident that they have been targeted over this issue. They are unlikely to come into contact with middle-aged AGPs. Instead they will be seeing their fey mates, or non-binary friends. It's easy to be outraged on their behalf, when you are at cross purposes with women talking about pervy cross dressers.

Her just saying that mostly it's all fine, but really we can't let any ole man self ID, willy-nilly, because obviously that's just plain daft was impossible to refute.

She was eminently reasonable, her argument was totally rational and easy to understand.

There's just nothing for them to push against. There is no rebellion that wouldn't look plain silly.

WarriorN · 06/06/2023 06:29

Unfortunately dignity gets thrown back "can't trans people have dignity?!"

Details face to be given: Somehow a male has the ultimate right to piss next to a little girl.

That particular point, and the point that somehow a male has the trumping right to care for a disabled woman or girl - was missed out (I've not finished yet though. )

IcakethereforeIam · 06/06/2023 08:39

Doc Stock does say she's not 'extreme' enough for some GC feminists. But I suspect some things weren't touched upon for brevity. I think even the most 'milquetoast' among us would agree that single sex changing rooms and care are non negotiable. I can't disagree with her pragmatism, that a passing tw could probably continue to use female spaces with impunity. I don't like it but I can't think of a practical way to stop someone set on violating social norms who isn't obviously male. Though, as a disincentive, there should be penalties if they're caught.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/06/2023 09:45

That was an excellent listen. She's so articulate about a subject that's proved to be a nightmare to discuss with clarity.
And kudos to the students for being prepared to not only stand up for free speech but to attempt to articulate an incoherent ideology.
A real pleasure to start the day with such an excellent discussion.

Datun · 06/06/2023 10:05

Helleofabore · 05/06/2023 18:14

Rather datun! I too doubt they will watch. They didn’t read the book. And I was surprised not one person could articulate a question that showed her to not have a reasonable position.

I consider the student who tried to take exception to her calling some people ‘babies’ was really just tone policing and not showing her to be unreasonable. In fact, Doc Stock pointed out she did not want to be a ‘spokesperson’ to be ‘looked up to’.

Loving the 'Rather datun!', btw.

We so need to re-popularise it.

(If we have time between lashings of ginger beer, of course.)

DrBlackbird · 06/06/2023 11:33

No, I am not impressed by his questions or his ‘debating’ skills. He’s going almost entirely on pre prepared, obviously cherry picked, material to essentially argue one way or another that trans women safety matters more than women and girl’s safety. Shame really as a more informed interviewer would have led to a better opponent for Prof Stock.

Failing 1st year debating requirements to a) read up on both sides of the argument to be better prepared and b) respond back to the point you’re opponent is making in the moment.

Though his problem is that he couldn’t respond to completely logical statements. What could he say? At least he accepts sex is binary. One can only assume he adheres to a belief in gender. Whatever that may mean.

I absolutely love the way Prof Stock says you believe what you want.

AlisonDonut · 06/06/2023 11:34

All his questions were 'but what about men'.

It was quite incredible.

AlisonDonut · 06/06/2023 11:35

They put it up, then unlisted it overnight and now it is visible again.

Interesting.

DrBlackbird · 06/06/2023 11:40

that women are being used by this ideology

Absolutely agree that this one of the most important points was not addressed. That slightly emotional young woman who was upset at Dr Stock using the term ‘babies’ made the point about trans women wanting the binary and wanted to move from one binary into the other was a point about TW needing to be in women’s spaces to validate themselves. I thought that was an interesting and important issue that didn’t get addressed. However, if it had, that could have made the discussion more contentious.

maltravers · 06/06/2023 11:48

My understanding was that the chair/student’s role this time was partly at least to ask the anonymous questions sent in advance. It was a Q&A I think..? Maybe I’m wrong, I don’t really want to watch it again to check!

Premiumbondbaby · 06/06/2023 13:45

@maltravers I thought that was the case, can’t remember if they explicitly stated it but at times it came across as he was asking questions from other students.

Premiumbondbaby · 06/06/2023 13:48

I have to say the debate I’m looking forward to is Kier Starmer and KJK in the run up to the next election.

KJK is far more robust on the subject. Personally I am more aligned with KS which is why I enjoyed the debate.

Datun · 06/06/2023 14:02

DrBlackbird · 06/06/2023 11:40

that women are being used by this ideology

Absolutely agree that this one of the most important points was not addressed. That slightly emotional young woman who was upset at Dr Stock using the term ‘babies’ made the point about trans women wanting the binary and wanted to move from one binary into the other was a point about TW needing to be in women’s spaces to validate themselves. I thought that was an interesting and important issue that didn’t get addressed. However, if it had, that could have made the discussion more contentious.

Yes it would've been more contentious.

This way the students were basically lead through the nose to a certain conclusion, because of Kathleen stock's moderate viewpoints.

In an ideal world, the outcome would be the same, even if a more pro women basis made it happen. Women's spaces ring fenced. End of.

The reason for students thinking that might be advisable though, would not necessarily be because they have grasped that women are being used by a male supremacist movement. It would be because, reluctant though they are to agree, they do understand that the loopholes can be exploited by bad faith actors.

I do wonder, sometimes, why the concept of AGP never enters their heads. I mean, they do mix with men, right?

Stock did raise it, by pointing out that the umbrella for what constitutes a transwoman is so wide, it includes cross dressers. (It actually includes anyone of course.)

i'm assuming they still haven't analysed what cross-dressing actually requires - in terms of its use of women, both as a concept, and as a presence.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall when they raise the possibility of her being right to the rabid mob who were outside.

TeiTetua · 06/06/2023 15:36

I knew I could never sit through an hour of watching the debate (if that's what it's called). But I was able to use an online service to get the audio channel from the Youtube video, then loaded it to my phone and listened to it during a couple of car journeys.

In fact I thought Matthew did a pretty good job, considering his age (but of course the president of the Oxford Union should be articulate...) and you have to consider that she's been steeping herself in gender concerns for years, and he had to pick up the topic quickly. And it was a fair audience too--they each got some applause occasionally. He wasn't really hammering away at her, but there had to be some opposition, or she'd never give her best explanation. A champion tennis player needs an opponent to show off against!

Kathleen Stock was very impressive. She's got good ideas which she can explain well, and as she keeps emphasizing--she's not a radical or an ideologue. She's very down to earth and has a sense of humour. The video is well worth seeing (or just listening to).

AuxArmesCitoyens · 06/06/2023 18:56

I'd have liked more pushback on the stats that there's no evidence of harm to women in places with self-ID. Have they looked for evidence of women self-excluding? I read a really interesting article a while back on a woman who set up an app where you could book people's swimming pools privately. She was amazed to find something like 60% of her clients were Muslim women, who were self-excluding from mixed sex public swimming pools.

JanesLittleGirl · 06/06/2023 20:46

AuxArmesCitoyens · 06/06/2023 18:56

I'd have liked more pushback on the stats that there's no evidence of harm to women in places with self-ID. Have they looked for evidence of women self-excluding? I read a really interesting article a while back on a woman who set up an app where you could book people's swimming pools privately. She was amazed to find something like 60% of her clients were Muslim women, who were self-excluding from mixed sex public swimming pools.

The stand-out from KS is that she only pushes back where she has the facts.

Lilifer · 07/06/2023 08:32

Flimpychunk · 07/06/2023 08:20

Dr Stock wrote a great article about how she isn’t the sole person toiling away at understanding the issue

https://unherd.com/2023/06/the-gender-wars-are-not-a-gift-to-the-right/

Thank you @Flimpychunk I'll check that out 👍🏻

OP posts:
MrsOvertonsWindow · 07/06/2023 08:49

That's a great piece by Kathleen. Love that she detects "the growing sound of women’s incandescent fury..."

What a good writer and speaker she is.

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