Protection at work?

[sandytoksvigsbigtoe]

I'm still in my probationary period at a new job, my boss's child is trans (young teen identifies as a girl), I think he believes me to be complete supportive of trans inclusion in women's sports/spaces etc. probably as I've always respected their child's desired pronouns and have tried to distance myself from any conversation or been neutral in my responses and it's the conclusion they have (incorrectly) come to.

Anyway, they've had a few issues recently relating to their child's inclusion in sport, bathroom use and overnight school trips which they have been very vocal to me about, and I am getting to the end of my tether (my daughter is in the same school/year as the child in question and has been directly affected - think suddenly coming second in her chosen sport to this male bodied child).

I know the Maya Forstater case protected the belief (belief?!) that trans women aren't women under the equality act, but how would this translate in the case of dismissal during a probationary period?

I work very closely with this individual, in a very small business (that they are the owner of) with no HR department. I bloody love my job, really don't want to lose it or leave. Eugh.

[BonfireLady]

Your protected characteristic of a gender critical belief applies now. You don't have to wait for two years to get those rights. All protected characteristics are covered from the moment you apply for the job.
They can dismiss you for any other reason during the first two years, but nothing related to a protected characteristic.
Sadly though, there is nothing to stop your boss being underhand and dismissing you for arbitrary reasons, once they know your views. I would bank up some evidence that you are doing a good job. In the meantime I'd try and avoid any conversations about gender identity for as long as possible, just to get that evidence base. Or just murmur a "mmm. That sounds difficult" or similar in response as needed.

Then when you inevitably do carefully represent an alternative viewpoint, because you can't do any more self-editing, you've got an evidence base for a tribunal to consider in the event of your dismissal.

However, if you love the job and want to stay, I'd personally try and keep your own thoughts on it all locked away and just focus on the work stuff. Tricky when it's being rammed in your face continuously but it really depends on how much you want to stay there.

[AnarchoTyrannosaurus]

I would try and ignore their views as much as possible at work, and instead tackle where the discrimination against your daughter is happening, at the school.

[OscarsAmmonite]

Sandy I keep my views under wraps at my workplace (Uni but lots of GC staff). My line manager is into trans rights.

As pp said tackle stuff at the school where the issue is affecting your DD.

[MrsOvertonsWindow]

What a nightmare OP. Presumably you feel compromised in being able to stand up for your daughter and any harm / discrimination she faces by the inclusion of a born male child in her changing rooms, sports etc?

[PorcelinaV]

I think you're doing the right thing to stay out of it at work.

The old saying: "Don't talk politics or religion, or especially trans issues".

[PurpleBugz]

@AnarchoTyrannosaurus

I would try and ignore their views as much as possible at work, and instead tackle where the discrimination against your daughter is happening, at the school.

This very much this. Tackling it at work will just bring you problems. It's the school you need to address this with.

At work I would try to think of a phrase to shut the conversation down without offending. I'm not sure but something like "I understand it's so frustrating, I personally can't think of a solution that doesn't disadvantage one group of people in favour of another either". (I'm not sure I'd agree by being excluded from toilets and sports they are being disadvantaged but in making that concession you may get bosses to consider the reality for the girls in the school).

[pickledandpuzzled]

I think you need to work out a phrase- and practice it- for when you can't avoid pinning your colours to the mast.

Something like
"It's so difficult, isn't it, to meet the needs of everyone involved. Some girls will miss out now your [jenny] is competing, and might wonder why it's fair. And of course you and [Jenny] will feel hurt and struggle to understand that. There really are no easy answers."

That recognises that feelings are involved, and that all sides are upset.

It's too easy to reduce it to fairness, no matter how right you may be.
Staff and children are all having to find a way to accommodate these changes, rightly or wrongly,

You may find room for a

"It's leading to some awful clashes between groups, internationally. Did you see the violence in New Zealand? And there has been terrible behaviour online."

"Do you think Eddie Izzard is helping, with his constant swapping of pronouns and presentation? It doesn't look very good, to people who don't know a trans girl like [Jenny]"

I think part of the issue is people not seeing beyond their harmless trans family member's needs, to see the bigger impact on a societal level across the world. Making it big may help.
Making it clear that [jenny] may not be a problem, but the whole phenomena is.

[TheSandgroper]

I have been known to say to a bloke once “ I don’t need to hear so much on this subject. I am not your wife. You can talk to her”.

It worked for me but I am not in the UK/twas 30 years ago. Just remember, blokes are different from us. I’m told that they don’t dwell on a straight conversation the way you and I will.

[thirdfiddle]

No help for the work situation, but just sad at the difficulties everyone's lining these kids up for by joining in with the pretence they are the opposite sex when they are not. Poor [Jenny].

[sandytoksvigsbigtoe]

@BonfireLady I suspected as much, and you're right, they could just get rid of me under false pretences - I've had a lot of verbal praise in the role, but nothing written as yet so I can't even prove anything if the worst case scenario came true and I said something/they got rid of me.

Thank you all for the suggestions - yes, I've been doing a lot of "ah that sounds difficult", and "it's such a complex topic, isn't it?" to him. But I think some of your responses are great and will rehearse some of them!

I have already emailed the school re. the sports issue - anonymously and not referring to my DD specifically, am yet to receive a response.

[BonfireLady]

@sandytoksvigsbigtoe

@BonfireLady I suspected as much, and you're right, they could just get rid of me under false pretences - I've had a lot of verbal praise in the role, but nothing written as yet so I can't even prove anything if the worst case scenario came true and I said something/they got rid of me.

Thank you all for the suggestions - yes, I've been doing a lot of "ah that sounds difficult", and "it's such a complex topic, isn't it?" to him. But I think some of your responses are great and will rehearse some of them!

I have already emailed the school re. the sports issue - anonymously and not referring to my DD specifically, am yet to receive a response.

As you're still in your probationary period and there is no official HR, maybe start an email trail?

"Please could I ask for some feedback on how I'm doing in my probationary period?"

Just something light that you can dip into every now and again. As the probation comes to an end would be another opportunity, for example.

If there ever was a need for a tribunal (hopefully not), it's balance of probability that you need to prove. It's not proof beyond doubt.

That's very awkward that your own child is directly affected by your boss' child being included in sports. It's pretty amazing that your boss can be so ignorant to think that you'd be happy for his child to be beating yours by competing in the wrong sex category. Even if testosterone suppression was effective at levelling out sex-based differences in physiology (which it's not), children can't have access to this, so right now, even by "trans positivity in sport" standards, his child is simply swapping over to an easier category - and dominating in it, directly to the detriment of everyone who the category was created for.

[BluebellBlueballs]

HR person here.
Personally I an openly GC at work despite having less than 2 years service BUT my boss is fairly neutral on trans stuff AND I hate my job and am looking to leave anyway so if I was discriminated against for being GC I'd happily put in a claim


If I loved my job and had an actively pro trans boss I'd probably put up and shut up. It's very easy to engineer a reason to get rid of you or 'set you up to fail' performance wise.

You can try to 'grey rock ' any conversations ie say as little as possible in response.

If it gets too much for you, your only other option is to leave.

[Campervangirl]

It's not a hill to die on.
You like your job, probably need the money?
I'd also give noncommittal replies "yes, it's a difficult situation"
My workplace is all about diversity and inclusion and we have a diversity and inclusion champion (lesbian, not that her sexuality should make any difference but she's really into inclusion based on her own experiences) in our smallish team of mainly middle aged men.
We have regular discussions (talked at) in our team catch ups.
Trans women are women.
Women can have penis's.
Trans women have periods.
Trans women are menopausal.
Trans women can give birth.
I practically have to sit on my hands, bite my lip to stop me dropping myself in it.
I need my job and in the real world I should be able to challenge bullshit like this but I can't because I risk losing my job.
My male colleagues sit there looking dazed and confused.
Some have received very long snot-a-grams (emails) outlining the statics of suicides etc in the trans community from our champion when they haven't given the correct answers.
It's like the Emperor's New Clothes, everyone can see what's happening but no-one will challenge it.

[IWillNoLie]

I think it is better to keep discussion of controversial topics outside work where there isn’t the power differential.

I don’t want to go there.

Can we discuss [work topic]?

[DreamItDoIt]

Frankly if you were a bloke I don't expect he would be discussing with you - you shouldn't have to put up with it.

Personally I could not sit there and listen to a man telling me his son, who thinks he's a girl, should be in the girls changing rooms, participating in their sports and sharing accommodations on school trips. So I would leave and get another job, I certainly wouldn't be saying 'it's just such a complex situation' because it isn't, it's very easy for anyone with a brain cell.

In your situation, as you don't want to leave, I would simply refuse to discuss by saying I prefer to keep things businesslike and feel uncomfortable talking about personal things.

[AngelasAirpods]

If you love your job and wish to stay, can you change the focus of your conversations at work to be mainly about work? If you need to delve into some personal chat, why does it always have to be about trans? Sounds tedious.

You also need to speak to your daughters school about any unfairness and discrimination. You don’t need to discuss that at work.

[Frustratedgirl]

They could quite easily get rid of you before your 2 years tbh. You wouldn’t be able to bring it to an employment tribunal. Perhaps try and change the subject or need to do something in another room, then they know you’re a bit tired of the topic without you stating you have an entirely different viewpoint.

[IWillNoLie]

@Frustratedgirl

They could quite easily get rid of you before your 2 years tbh. You wouldn’t be able to bring it to an employment tribunal. Perhaps try and change the subject or need to do something in another room, then they know you’re a bit tired of the topic without you stating you have an entirely different viewpoint.

Discrimination kicks in at recruitment so you can go to tribunal for this before you have even been employed. But you need evidence and that is likely to be a stumbling block.

[sandytoksvigsbigtoe]

Gah it is so frustrating - he readily admitted a few weeks ago that his trans daughter is very average at sports, using it as a reason why it was unfair that they may not be able to compete against girls at some point soon - (was said as a reaction to the UK athletics news). So essentially saying that it's unfair that now they're in a position to beat girls (my daughter included, who used to regularly come first) even though they're average, that they may have to go back to being average by running in their own sex category.

I'm just going to have to put up and shut up aren't I. I will definitely attempt to get some sort of reflection of my performance in writing, and maybe keep a diary (being so small, the HR/people management processes are very informal). Just in case.

[DreamItDoIt]

The thing is, if you have complained tot the school then he will likely find out. Effectively you want to keep your job at the expense id your daughter then? Does he know that it was your daughter that was second? How can he sit there and say this to you? Unless
Of course he knows you darent say anything as he will get rid of you. Must be an amazing job with great pay?

[sandytoksvigsbigtoe]

Effectively you want to keep your job at the expense id (sic) your daughter then?

There's always one isn't there.

If you'd ready my posts properly you'll have read that the report was made anonymously. You don't know enough about the school situation to jump to conclusions like that - so maybe don't? Or instead, ask a question.

So no, my daughter is paying no expense other than to the agenda that pushes male sexed boys to the front of the queue when it comes to rights.

[anon666]

I'd keep my mouth shut around anyone in a position of power over me who has a strong opinion in the other direction.

[dcbc1234]

In that kind of claustrophic situation where you want to keep your job, just avoid being drawn in to talk about the subject.
It is on the school to ensure that your daughter is not unfairly disadvantaged because of how they have chosen to do 'inclusion'. Maybe the long-awaited Dept of Education guidelines will help clarify things.
Having employment rights is one thing, being able to enforce them comes at the price of a great deal of stress and as we have seen sometimes financial requirements.

Perhaps you could find another suitable job and then explain your real position to your current employer and see what their reaction is. No doubt not good unless they are having doubts about their child's 'transition' themselves.
Best wishes, it is a ridiculous situation.