John Burns-Murdoch - US/UK analysis

[GreenAllOver]

Has anyone read his article in the FT and the subsequent Twitter thread? I usually find his analysis insightful but he seems to have completely misunderstood the different left / right dimensions of the women’s rights issue in the UK and the USA.

He also appears to define opposing self ID as transphobia, but also uses data that says people would accept a trans nor non binary relative as proof of acceptance. But of course, it’s entirely possible (mainstream?) to both accept someone as trans while wishing to retain single sex spaces for some purposes.

https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1662235892126236672

It reminds me of that Venn diagram I’ve seen posted - which shows the overlap of different belief systems that come together only in the belief that sex is immutable.

[PermanentTemporary]

I value that he points out that Britain really shouldn't be seen as the blasted Mad Max hellscape for trans people that twitter sometimes insists it must be, apparently due to the fact that a major parenting website based in the UK has a group of users who are feminists, plus a popular writer notes that sex was a material fact in her life story and remains so for others.

But yes, lots of undefined terms there. I would be and have been supportive of friends and family transitioning if that means using names, preferred pronouns etc, and also totally recog owing that transition is part of our culture and that some people need to do it. I am also a frequent poster on FWR, and tbh would no doubt be regarded as a GC extremist by many due to such fash-adjacent views as 'women's sport is for women'.

These polls don't in any way capture reality. But I'm glad he said it was overstated.

[Forwarder]

Is this guy the FT's version of LOJ?

Americans asked about sex and 60% say it can't be changed. (Only 60%?!!!)
Brits asked about gender, a very different question.

His central assertion is that the UK conservatives are importing US Republican values. Lots of replies pointing out it's the opposite problem.

My state school children churn out American social policy issues as though they apply in this country. I have to unpick and explain to them that, for example, we have a very different police system, or that regulated abortion rights aren't going anywhere. It is wearing. Before you can get to an actual discussion, you have to disabuse the misinformation teachers have fed them.

[Fenlandia]

That's a shame as he is normally very good on economic analysis and was excellent on covid stats. Yet another tin-eared bloke who doesn't understand the negative impact of gender ideology?

[GreenAllOver]

I don’t think he’s taken a stance on this issue, in a political way. I’m just disappointed that he’s completely muddled in his analysis in way which he wouldn’t be on economic or covid issues.

I think there is some interesting analysis to be done on the unexpected overlap between left wing women’s groups in the UK and socially conservative Republicans, that unpicks how this issue cuts across traditional party political and social liberal / conservative divides.

[nauticant]

Is this guy the FT's version of LOJ?

He made a name for himself during Covid time as stressing the need to be dispassionate about what the numbers represent, and so necessarily to be very clear about definitions, and to analyse the numbers properly in order to come to soundly based conclusions.

Unfortunately though when it comes to the trans issue he lets his previous standards go out of the window. There's something about trans that makes many people beclown themselves.

[drhf]

I think there is some interesting analysis to be done on the unexpected overlap between left wing women’s groups in the UK and socially conservative Republicans, that unpicks how this issue cuts across traditional party political and social liberal / conservative divides.

I agree with Republicans on lots of things. Days have 24 hours, the sun sets in the west, water is wet etc. Until very recently, the contention that "biological sex is real and sometimes important" was similarly self-evident.

Any overlap in views between feminists and conservatives on gender doesn't get us far, because it falls down on the issue of gender variation. Of course liberals are not going to - and should not - support discrimination against people who reject traditional gender roles and presentation. The crucial thing about the feminist perspective is that recognises that sex sometimes matters while also welcoming rejection of gender norms.

[drhf]

Venn diagram referred to by PP:

[PriOn1]

@GreenAllOver

I don’t think he’s taken a stance on this issue, in a political way. I’m just disappointed that he’s completely muddled in his analysis in way which he wouldn’t be on economic or covid issues.

I think there is some interesting analysis to be done on the unexpected overlap between left wing women’s groups in the UK and socially conservative Republicans, that unpicks how this issue cuts across traditional party political and social liberal / conservative divides.

Yes, he appears to have jumped in with only a very superficial understanding at best.

He appears to have searched for figures he can crunch, but has missed all the nuance about the way questions are framed within this debate and how different the answers can be, depending upon the language used and the framing of the questions.

Perhaps if he gets backlash he will actually start to read up on it. If this is, as it appears to be, an off-the-cuff response to a Twitter accusation, it might be that he is simply ignorant of the entire debate and what it is that women are objecting to. If so, he might have a rude awakening!

[GreenAllOver]

Thanks for the diagram, drhf.

And what happened to get a deletion?

[RealityFan]

No idea re my deletion. I obviously don't even know when I'm being rude or out of order.

[PriOn1]

@RealityFan

No idea re my deletion. I obviously don't even know when I'm being rude or out of order.

You can ask what it was for, if you don’t know. I was unexpectedly deleted the other day for using the common term for orchiectomy in a thread about sports people. I know there have been deletions before when using that word about a specific child, but had no idea it was generally banned.

[RealityFan]

Thanks for the suggestion, but I really can't be bothered. I understand MN need to cover their backs legally, and appeal to the widest possible membership. Thus err on side of safety/PCness.