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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

ASD sister identifying as non-binary

23 replies

pastatriangles · 21/05/2023 14:30

She is in her 20s, Oxbridge-educated. All of her friends are trans/gender-fluid. She says she always felt 'different' and thinks that the difference is related to gender (denies ASD). Gets v upset when the topic is brought up - leaps to 'Karen,' 'transphobe' etc. No interest in serious women's issues - Roe v Wade etc - but actively campaigns for children to receive hormone therapy. It's just disappointing.

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AmuseBish · 21/05/2023 15:01

Doesn't literally everyone "feel different" when they are growing up? Almost as if everyone is, actually, different?

OldCrone · 21/05/2023 15:31

All of her friends are trans/gender-fluid. She says she always felt 'different'

If all her friends are trans/gender-fluid and she feels different, wouldn't that mean she's not trans/gender-fluid?

But different from what? Aren't we all different from each other because we all have our own personalities?

NewNameNigel · 21/05/2023 15:33

She's probably on a forum somewhere posting how disappointing it is that her sister is GC....

pastatriangles · 21/05/2023 15:36

NewNameNigel · 21/05/2023 15:33

She's probably on a forum somewhere posting how disappointing it is that her sister is GC....

Yeah, fuck me for caring about women's rights and identity and not thinking that womanhood is just a collection of stereotypes. For thinking abortion is a women's rights issue. For thinking it's unfair that the NHS refers to 'men' and 'people with cervixes.' So disappointing.

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determinedtomakethiswork · 21/05/2023 15:38

That education was wasted on her! Perhaps it's just time to pull back a bit for your own sanity. Surely in 10 years time all this one will have passed?

sunshineandtea · 21/05/2023 15:39

My eldest DD went through this and I agree how disappointing it is.

There is a much higher proportion of autistic people identifying as NB/trans etc. apparently.

Thankfully she has come out the other end (something else of focus on??) and remains her birth gender.

I guess the only thing you can do is be non comittal and say 'that's nice, dear' and change the subject. I find it so tedious when people bang on about their gender identity or whatever, like anyone really cares, you do you and just get on with it.

Good luck 🫶🏼

pastatriangles · 21/05/2023 15:42

determinedtomakethiswork · 21/05/2023 15:38

That education was wasted on her! Perhaps it's just time to pull back a bit for your own sanity. Surely in 10 years time all this one will have passed?

I added that detail both because she's not stupid, she's very intelligent, and because it adds to how disappointing it is - an intelligent, high-achieving woman rejecting her womanhood on the basis of not fitting into stereotypes, rather than acting as a role model for other girls and women.

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NewNameNigel · 21/05/2023 15:43

pastatriangles · 21/05/2023 15:36

Yeah, fuck me for caring about women's rights and identity and not thinking that womanhood is just a collection of stereotypes. For thinking abortion is a women's rights issue. For thinking it's unfair that the NHS refers to 'men' and 'people with cervixes.' So disappointing.

Wow! I didn't say fuck you, just pointed out that your sister will have her own perspective on your views.

pastatriangles · 21/05/2023 15:44

sunshineandtea · 21/05/2023 15:39

My eldest DD went through this and I agree how disappointing it is.

There is a much higher proportion of autistic people identifying as NB/trans etc. apparently.

Thankfully she has come out the other end (something else of focus on??) and remains her birth gender.

I guess the only thing you can do is be non comittal and say 'that's nice, dear' and change the subject. I find it so tedious when people bang on about their gender identity or whatever, like anyone really cares, you do you and just get on with it.

Good luck 🫶🏼

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. It's hard because we're very close but she's constantly coming out with things that boggle the mind - saying it's bigotry to be against men in women's sports/prisons, for example. I'll just have to stay out of it and hope it passes.

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AmuseBish · 21/05/2023 15:47

It frustrates me, the lack of critical thinking, but being that age and amongst what she must be constantly told are the most clever and right people in the country, the pressure to accept it all without question must be immense.

Once you've accepted it, it's indefinable and nebulous enough that you can make "gender identity" the reason for pretty much anything you feel like.

Clarice99 · 21/05/2023 15:48

There is a much higher proportion of autistic people identifying as NB/trans etc. apparently.

I've read/heard this before. I'm autistic, diagnosed, I know quite a few autistic women and we're all GC. I wonder if this higher proportion of autistic people identifying as NB are the younger generation because all of the autistic women (and men) I know are firmly in the facts/science camp - no such thing as non-binary and sex is what matters.

If my sister announced she was 'non-binary' I'd distance myself from her. A lot.

pastatriangles · 21/05/2023 15:50

NewNameNigel · 21/05/2023 15:43

Wow! I didn't say fuck you, just pointed out that your sister will have her own perspective on your views.

Sorry it's just a serious issue and women are met with a lot of patronisation and eye rolling for raising it - seemed like this was one of those comments.

We are second generation in the UK and I would feel just as devastated if she renounced our heritage because she was high achieving and didn't feel she embodied that stereotype.

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MichelleScarn · 21/05/2023 15:54

@sunshineandtea has it *
I guess the only thing you can do is be non comittal and say 'that's nice, dear' and change the subject. I find it so tedious when people bang on about their gender identity or whatever, like anyone really cares, you do you and just get on with it.
I agree, take away the thing that's allowing them to push against you that's proving to them how righteous they are against wrong, boring you and wonder how quickly they'll stop banging on about how individual and different they are!

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 21/05/2023 15:58

‘All her friends are n/b or trans’

I think that is part of the problem, she is in an echo chamber, and her reaction to your attempts to say anything other than ‘echo’ shows they are probably quite scary. Of course this stuff is rife in Further education at the moment, and although Oxbridge should allow for lots of different experiences, the hard fact ( at least in my experience) is that if you get stuck in a small group because you are not as socially adept or open as lots of other people , it can be hard and frightening to break out. It’s easier to stay in a small college circle than in non college based Universities.

hopefully she may meet other ( less 🧜🏼‍♀️) people through work and start to be a little more grounded. but who knows😳.At the moment her path is the one to plaudits, though probably not to joy.

SunflowerLovers · 21/05/2023 16:11

What would you like her to do?

BonfireLady · 21/05/2023 17:01

actively campaigns for children to receive hormone therapy

I'd be tempted to throw a couple of curve balls from recent times in to the conversation e.g.

"I wonder why that gender clinic nurse from the US who is married to a trans man is now blowing the whistle on children receiving hormones and therapy"... "I wonder why Caitlyn Jenner is now campaigning to stop children getting medicalised gender affirming care".... then I'd step back and see what she says.

It's very Jeremy Vine with his pretend naivety but handled in the right way, in the right tone at the right time it might provoke a different thought process on that front.

As far her own non-binary status, this could be a positive for her. It depends on whether it leads to her deciding to have surgery to match her particular gender identity - that's a whole different ball game.

Being non-binary, followed by identifying as a man is a well trodden pathway for autistic females, many of whom don't understand the accidental conflation of gender incongruence and "classic" autistic female presentation (many are androgynous, many prefer "boys'/men's clothes, many develop a deep interest in certain concepts - for example). However, for some people gender identity seems to be a very positive thing, particularly non-binary identities. A non-binary identity is different from an identity where someone has a belief that they are of the opposite sex. From my basic understanding it seems to be more like "I sometimes identify with a masculine side of myself, I sometimes identify with a feminine side of myself". I don't have a gender identity but if I did, I could empathasise with non-binary on that basis.

It's a problem where it impacts others' boundaries or can lead to a pathway that may not be right for the individual. Add in autism and I'd say that is highly unlikely that it would be the right pathway for anyone if it leads to them wanting to alter their own body. Almost without exception, I'd say that an understanding of autism needs to be front and centre before thinking about gender.

Medicalisation for gender dysphoria will only be the right pathway for a vanishingly small number of people who have it - from early studies 80% of gender dysphoric people will establish a peace with their own body. With the huge numbers of people presenting with gender dysphoria since that statistic was published (in the 80s I think), that number must surely be higher. Unfortunately it's impossible to know as therapeutic practice has changed completely, from watchful waiting to gender affirming, as has the cohort, from mostly young boys to distinct groups (autistic adolescent girls, gay men and men with the 3 letter acronym issue to name a few significant groups).

I do think it's a valid question from a PP. What do you want her to do? Are you worried about her leading herself or others towards harm? If so, what next? Personally I'd start with something like the questions I threw in earlier as it does seem like she's currently a part of what is leading many children down a lifelong medication pathway that is unlikely to be right for them.

Nightmare2022 · 21/05/2023 17:33

Prepare yourself for her to move from non-binary to saying she’s male. This is the common trajectory. I’m sorry your sister has been captured by this cult.

pastatriangles · 21/05/2023 17:41

SunflowerLovers · 21/05/2023 16:11

What would you like her to do?

I don't want her to hurt herself with hormones and procedures. I know that she values her friends highly and get the impression they would drop her if she decided not to go along with all of this.

And ultimately I feel the same as if she were following Andrew Tate or David Duke, or giving all her money to a pyramid scheme. I want her to take a step back and reevaluate and stop believing these things.

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Iafontaine · 21/05/2023 17:57

I hope she does nothing irreversible and can take a breath. I am going to be in Cambridge from the autumn and I wonder how it will be, looking at how some of the collèges have behaved.

MumOfYoungTransAdult · 21/05/2023 18:17

I want her to take a step back and reevaluate and stop believing these things.

Sadly you can't make her do that, and it may get worse if you try. Political arguments or even factual arguments are likely to put her back up and push her further down the path she is on, and alienate her from you.

"Staying out of it" as far as trans goes is a good idea. Two other things you can do:

Try to connect with her over other things. What else does she like doing, what else is she interested in? Focus on talking about that instead of trans. Try to hold back your anger with her (and your fear for her) and build up her connection with you.

Can you widen her social circle by asking her to join you and your friends socially?

PrinceHaz · 21/05/2023 18:26

There’s nothing you can do. This all makes perfect sense to her at the moment and you arguing your point of view further cements her thoughts.
I think the best you can do is rather than talking about the wider issues (on which her views are deeply entrenched), focus on her personally. If you get into discussion, just say that you care about her and just want her to take her time when it comes to life changing decisions.

SirVixofVixHall · 21/05/2023 18:28

AmuseBish · 21/05/2023 15:01

Doesn't literally everyone "feel different" when they are growing up? Almost as if everyone is, actually, different?

This !

Billi80 · 21/05/2023 23:29

NewNameNigel · 21/05/2023 15:33

She's probably on a forum somewhere posting how disappointing it is that her sister is GC....

😂

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