Everyday Sexism in the Military (and other uniformed orgs)

[Brefugee]

Couldn't think of a really snappy title but don't want to completely further derail the Caroline F thread with all this.

We started a side chat about our military days. I'm going to completely repost my first big one on that, because some of us don't want to wade through that long thread (for various reasons).

I didn't join the police, though i wanted to so badly as a teenager, becuase i was 1 inch too short back when it really mattered.

I did eventually join the army, that great bastion of inclusion and diversity. This was the 80s, i was young, headhunted into exactly the right job for me and running around with a machine gun about 20% of the time. A flippin' good time was had by me.

And yet and yet. There was sexism and misogyny. We were warned about that at the recruiting office to be fair, and as a pads brat i knew it was coming. I didn't realise how bad it would be, and since my father was still serving at the time i suspect i was shielded from much of the worst of it.

But it was relentless. Say we'd all been on exercise for 6 weeks, having each other's backs doing the same job etc etc. Been back a few hours, had a shower and then wandered over to the bar for a pint. Immediately the door opened you'd be hit with a chorus of "get yer tits out for the lads", or some guy would unzip his fly and wave his dick at you. (answer to that? "oh it looks like a penis, but in miniature" - could get you a slap in the face or worse tho)

Or you'd be walking down a corridor in HQ and your major would call you in to his office to say "go to the stores and get smaller lightweights* - they should be tighter than that, so i can see the outline of your knickers. What colour are your knickers, btw?"

Or nightshift, or being on guard at nights and doing a perimiter check. 2 women not allowed out together, so always with a man. With a loaded rifle. And usually a pick-axe handle too. And pawing you sometimes, leering at you.

and worse and worse and more and more. All my ex-military friends have the same stories.

But if we go to a reunion, or write in fb groups and mention any of this? all the guys go "but i didn't see any of that" EVEN THE FUCKERS WHO WERE THE WORST OFFENDERS.

We know the police is a nest of racist, sexist misogyny. Even members of the upper heirarchy acknowledge that. Just not the plod on the beat. Funny that.

*the green trousers

and this one:

and when we had an SOP kit inspection (for those not in the know: it's all the stuff you have in your backpack etc ready to deploy at a moment's notice) holding up the 3 pairs of knickers we were required (mostly we packed PT knickers to stop this) and asking where the matching bras were. Why we didn't have shaving kit. Where are the tampons? They were not on the list - you had to have only what was on the list so that was bullshit, and we started packing shaving kits. Only to be put on orders for having kit we didn't need...
And then if we did have the not-on-the-list tampons in our packs, they unwrapped them and wore them as earrings, chucked them all over the place etc etc.

Mind you, there were 5 black guys in my troop (6 women) and about 40 others - all white men in F-Troop. And we got "men on the left collect your SLR from the armorour, splits on the right clllect your SMG from the armourer, F-Tribe - go over to the woods over there and cut some spears".

Relentless. And i hear it hasn't really changed. So it is beyond belief that this kind of low-level shit isn't happening in every police station in every force across the land.

Happened in the cadets too. Two occasions stand out. Once (age 14) asked, by the commanding officer, if I was going to mud wrestle with another female cadet. Another time that stands out, on a camping trip and one of the supervising adults told me if I was a year or two older he'd show me a good time.

urgh, the cadets. Awful.

When i did my first trade training (gosh this is outing) i was at catterick, Vimy Barracks. We were learning a job men and women could do. The men were usually rejects from a job only men were allowed to do (more out in the field stuff that we women never did. sigh) which paid a lot more. We had bright yellow shoulder flashes, they had bright green. And we were called daisies. And the guys who were training with us were often forced to borrow a handbag from one of us and mince around the classroom if they made a mistake.

Something that was said to me in the early days... (nearly 20 years ago)

The men start with respect, and have to work hard to lose it.
The women start with no respect, have to work hard to gain any, and can lose it in a heartbeat.

DH says its better now, but no where near an equal playing field. His cap badge has a more even balance of men/women than most (one of the brains rather than brawn ones) but men still outnumber women and there is still a lit of misogyny.

One of our daughters has military ambitions, its what concerns him the most... not war zones etc, but make twats.

Not in the military myself, but lots of friends who are. One issue they always mention is your reliance on your report, for career progression. Seems to give your boss a huge amount of power. One of my friends felt unable to complain about serious sexual harassment and stalking from one of her boss's mates, in case he took it out on her in her report.

Similar can happen in civilian organisations, of course, but typically, you are less reliant on a single individual for career progression, and you have recourse to HR or to approaching another manager. There is a hierarchy, but it is less rigid.

I was an RAF brat. As a 5'8 12 year old my dad's squadron called me Lolita and Jailbait. One year at the squadron Christmas party "Santa" (young single fighter pilot) refused to hand out the gifts to the little kids until I sat on his knee. He groped my breasts in front of 90 percent of the squadron and their families and wouldn't let me go until I'd told him what a good girl I was. I was 13 years old. My dad and his boss who was a family friend (we used to go on holiday together) made excuses for him. Short of actual rape, I don't think my dad would have rocked the boat in my defence. It was all shrugged off and/or blamed on me.

Stupidly I was still considering a career in the military all the way to an honest conversation with my Dad's ex Wing Commander in my late teens who told me the shit I had experienced the past would probably look like a walk in the park to compared to actually having to work with them.

Many of my friends did join up. Only the guys stuck it out long time.

Blimey @Dinosauratemydaffodils that's awful.
My dad was very keen that women weren't abused or whatever. Back in the early 70s in an all male regiment, the new pay sgt turned up at the main gate and asked the way to the mess so she could dump her stuff off and introduce herself. The corporal wouldn't let her in, no women here. And she had a real fight on her hands.

Once in the mess for a formal dinner, in that awful female sgt dress thing, she went to get a round at the bar and they wouldn't serve her (women not allowed at the bar, only the soldiers) until my dad (Sgt Major, thank goodness) stepped in and explained in minute detail to the private at the bar why he'd never ever make lance corproal if he couldn't recognise a sergeant when he saw one.

I was in the Int Corps, whch even in the 80s was quite progressive. So we had a lot of women, lots of female upper ranks & officers (none of the officers was badged intelligence so they didn't do an intelligence job) and our job was done by "who is an expert in this" rather than "who is the sgt in charge" which meant that even as a cpl i often had a Staff Sergeant working "for" me on a project, but beasting me round the assault course later. They were, for the most part, OK chaps. Geeks mostly.

The signals guys posted with us? urgh.

No military experience but as a teen in the 80s I was very interested in the navy, and quickly lost interest when I found out Wrens weren't allowed to serve on ships, wore a stupid skirt and court shoes uniform, and seemed destined to work in admin/secretarial type roles. Fuck that shit.

my first choice was Navy too and i had all the quals for one of the jobs but it could only be done on ships. Fuckers.

tagging @ifiwerenotanandroid who asked about this thread.

From what DD has heard from a female friend who is currently serving, it hasn't improved much.

We need to have armed forces. Is that what they rely on?

Cheers!

Repeating this from the other thread: last night's Newsnight with Mark Urban looking at the problems women face in the armed services (starts 20:51 in).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001m0s5/newsnight-china-a-new-cold-war

Blimey Brefugee we might have met in a previous life. I was a handbag.

I'll add more later, I have lots even though I didn't serve for years and years

Meaning both my service was short and it was a long time ago 😁

I joined in 1984 - our passing out parade was the day before Good Friday that year, so we got a long weekend at home before heading off to Catterick.
Training cpl at guildford was the one and only, sadly deceased, Maxine Gillespie.

I only lasted 6.5 years.

so, if any of that rings a bell, @Tallisker drop me a DM if you like 😀

I spent some time as a young teen in the 90s at the local army barracks doing "practice" cadet training, basically it was like a club for those who wanted to go on and join when of age. I quit because of the leering, the constant sexual quips ("whilst you're down there, cadet!"), tits comments, arse comments, the other male teens going on and on and fucking on about wanking and jizzing and blah blah blah. I just wanted to be in the forces, not have to deal with sex shit from these males. I mean, it was like that in other areas of normal everyday life (old men making leering remarks "I've got something you can suck on!" etc, more "whilst you're down there love!" fucking idiotic comments whilst the men all stood around laughing at such a hilarious comment, male customers saying "oh yes please!" when no. 69 would come up on the number ticket at the supermarket I worked at...relentless, all the time. Never did join up.

@Brefugee OMG we were definitely at 8 Sigs st the same time. Can't work out how to DM you from my phone

Have sent you a PM :)

And one back 😁

From what I hear, it used to terrible.

I eould suggest that things are much improved now, though possibly how much depends which you look at.

They're also not messing around anymore when people do behave inappropriately: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/defence-publishes-its-zero-tolerance-approach-to-sexual-offences

They are words. My contacts say it's pretty much as it was in my day.

And for anyone who may be wondering: Tallisker and I knew each other very well and are still in loose contact on other SM 😁

☺️

Do watch the Newsnight segment. IIRC, they show that it's as bad as it always was.