The ideological Capture of Psychotherapy

[NotHavingIt]

A scray, and deeply concerning, piece by James Esses in which he recounts his attendance at a recent conference on Existential psychotherapy.

https://open.substack.com/pub/jamesesses/p/the-ideological-capture-of-psychotherapy?r=clsg2&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

I think allyship lies in having a skimmed understanding of the issues and believing it to be a deep one.
Every time I learned more, I felt like I'd reached the final onion layer, but I hadn't.
There is an interesting thread with a GC iceberg. I haven't commented on it because I have issue with some aspects (e.g. my thoughts on TRAs and their fears) and I'm still happy to use pronouns as a form of respect of someone else's belief, within my own limits.... and I'm well aware that by adding comments on there it would take me a long time to explain myself on that thread. Partly because I waffle on in my reasonable way 😉 (not having a go here I promise - this is currently my favourite conversation on the whole board for where it's helping me get my head around stuff and you are a big part of that @NotHavingIt) and I just don't have the energy for it on that board. I'm happy knowing I'm an iceberg anomaly. Ha!

*on that thread

I think allyship is bound up with people's vision of themselves as good/progressive/liberal/kind/TRSOH.

I suspect for trans activist the tip of the GC iceberg is just that; the tip. Beneath the surface, there is a knowledge, or certainly a suspicion, that even those going along with pronouns don't really accept wholeheartedly the rest of the package.

When being 'good' or 'kind' - in the context of trans activism - implies one has to go along with the belief system - it can surely be nothing more than performative; which in itself mirrors the performativity of being trans identified or non binary in the first place. The reason that other people's validation is required ( even if only on surface kindness) is because a trans identity is ,by nature, socially constructed and dependent on the performance of acceptance by others ( very much The Emperor's New Clothes).

It is all about surface presentations. whilst beneath the surface lies something deeper, more complex, more troublesome and often much darker.

Is you daughter at the more highly functioning end of the autistic spectrum and therfeore maybe more socially embedded in a network of friends?

I think allyship is bound up with people's vision of themselves as good/progressive/liberal/kind/TRSOH.

Agreed. Definitely another big factor.

I suspect for trans activist the tip of the GC iceberg is just that; the tip. Beneath the surface, there is a knowledge, or certainly a suspicion, that even those going along with pronouns don't really accept wholeheartedly the rest of the package.

When being 'good' or 'kind' - in the context of trans activism - implies one has to go along with the belief system - it can surely be nothing more than performative

Agreed. My neurotypical daughter said that she believes TWAW but "obviously I know they are men really. I'm just happy to be kind to help them feel more comfortable". So performative from a kind place. I've seen it likened on a different thread to how we believe in the reality of the characters when we're watching a play on stage. It's not quite the same but it's a very close match. We're happy to immerse ourselves in that belief.

which in itself mirrors the performativity of being trans identified or non binary in the first place

This is the nub of where it gets more complicated. I can't remember which thread it's on (I think it's the "how do people believe trans" one) but there was a GP commenting on the complex line between people who know they are presenting with something that is not factual (in the literal sense e.g. biological sex in this context) and people who don't realise what factual and what is not. The poster mentioned that it happens a lot across various aspects of medicine.

She's high functioning and very intelligent. If you met her you'd think her very mature and analytical on world politics, news, science etc....

But only has a couple of friends and still isn't accessing school in a standard way. She's got very low social emotional intelligence. So I don't think social contagion applies in her case.

She's growing up at a time when these ideas are circulating and so is going to be very susceptible to them. I guess she might be very much into gaming? or certainly will be on-line quite a lot?

I used to teach at secondary level. I left teaching in 2010 and 'trans' just wasn't thing then at all. Those slightly 'different' pupils; usually very intelligent (and often not the most social ) were often really good at creative writing ( I taught English) or had interesting observations or ways of viewing the world.

At that time, such pupils might be Emos or Goths or some other type of outlaw youth tribe, when not at school. These were the sorts of avenues available to youth at that time for expressing their feeling of being outsiders or non-conformists, and allowed them to experiment with dress, make-up, hair, music and so on.

Gaming and online.... fair point re social contagion.

And spot on re creative writing. Phenomenal at it in fact. But then there could be some mum bias in that statement 😉

The thing with gaming ( I have an 8 year old granddaughter who is really into gaming - unlike most of her girl friends) is that avatars are a central feature, and I think young people can come to identify with them. In fact, you are encouraged as a necessary part of the process to become your avatar.

I've noticed a lot of the younger men who have trans identities are really nerdish and big into gaming and tech; often very socially isolated too. You can imagine they hang out at 'Forbidden Planet' and are also into Pokemon in a major way, and are also into Manga and other comic storybooks.

In fact one young man who I've been observing from a distance ( since he was 18 - he's now 30) is scheduled to have full re-assignment surgery in August ( he clearly has intense dysphoria around his male organ). Anyway, he develops games himself, and 'came out' last year with a new trans name - which happens to be the name of a central female character in a very popular, current game, which I suspect is not a coincidence.

He occasionally posts photos of himself for others on the forum to assess his transition progress - and I think he even has his hair in styles he's seen on on-line characters. Imaginative, sensitive souls who are a little 'different' can easily feel more at home in imaginary worlds.

That all makes a lot of sense. I had partly but not completely joined those dots previously when I heard about "otherkin". Wikipedia can be hit and miss but the info on here seems pretty helpful.... and pretty familiar (also links to furries, which I had thought of immediately when I was told about otherkin)

Otherkin

When I found out about it, I immediately thought of my daughter's online persona (name rather than avatar, but same thing in essence) because it refers to an animal. My concern was that otherkin people are apparently getting surgery ATM to match their identity. It's all linked.

Luckily, she and her sister both thought it sounded bonkers. We all agreed that it sounded like a mental illness where people wanted to change their real life bodies to match their online lives.

This...
Imaginative, sensitive souls who are a little 'different' can easily feel more at home in imaginary worlds
...is exactly why I brought it up as a conversation.

It was helpful that it seemed so different from gender identity in her eyes. But obviously I shared it because of the shared principle of all of this.

It sounds like the person you know is getting great comfort from his approach to blend his online and real life lives..... for now..... I can imagine you must be extremely worried.

Back to gender identity, I listened to a really interesting chat between Buck Angel and Blair White some time ago (posted on another thread) and they were both very clear on it being a mental illness where reassignment surgery had to be the absolute last resort. I guess they wouldn't necessarily know what true neutral therapy looks like (Buck said he had therapy, Blair said she did not) but they are both clear that children should not no anything medical. They were also both clear that they wished that their own dysphoria could have been resolved without medical interventions (and the lifelong impact of these).

NB I don't agree with everything that they both say, such as Buck saying that gay men should try her vagina before they say no (FFS, it's the girldick issue again - just the other way around) but I do on the above re dysphoria.

*do anything medical

Ah, just realised you may or may not not know him. "Observing from a distance" could also be online with lots of info shared by him.
Apologies if I misunderstood on that one.

Oops. Genuine accidentalb use of her instead of his. Sorry Buck!
Easy to do when typing quickly and writing about a vagina..

Yes, I know of this person through another forum I contribute to. It is 99% men who post, and a large percentage of those men are gay. This person hangs out on a particular section of the forum where I rarely contribute, as I'm often closed down very quickly and subject to abusive posts ( not by the person in question, but by his self appointed allies).

I'm always very careful only to talk about my own experience, and view, as a woman ( I make no comment on his situation), but that is simply not permitted; so I no longer even bother - but I do look in.

I think he's gone beyond the point - and it is inevitable he will have the full surgery in August. I think he is feeling euphoria at present, but as with dysphoria it is not a permanent state - but in many ways a detachment from reality.

😔😔😔😔 Heartbreaking to watch it unfold, even if you don't know the person in real life.
Especially so as you've tried to carefully provide an alternative viewpoint.

Given so many people do have a vulnerability and fear that leads them to question forums about whether they are making the right decision (detransitioners reporting this consistently), it's so sad that there isn't anything that can break through the fog of the gender euphoria.

He is euphoric, in large part, because he gets so much affirmation and encouraging feedback. The guys tell him that if they were not heterosexual they might fancy him ( he definitely seems to like that), or that he looks great.
When he talks about getting breast implants he is applauded; in fact every 'confessional' he posts is applauded. He is treated as inherently fragile and in need of protection - and so he is not exposed to any challenge.

He posts long pieces explaining how he is a woman ( everyone 'likes' and applauds these posts). If he is ever fleetingly mistaken for a woman he feels validated; and says things like "he too has been subjected to misogyny" because he has had wolf whistles ( though this seems to feel validating, rather than threatening, I detect).If I ever posted anything about my experience of being a woman the thread would be closed down or locked.

I understand that the euphoria can last for anything up to 10 years after transition, before dissonance and more difficult realities start to impinge.

That all sounds so depressingly.... inevitable 😔😞

I understand that the euphoria can last for anything up to 10 years after transition, before dissonance and more difficult realities start to impinge.

I have read similar. There was a really powerful interview from Shape Shifter on another thread and I remember him saying "I lived as a woman for 10 years before I realised I wasn't one".

I really hope that some curious gender affirming psychotherapy professionals come across this thread. Or journalists even - if their interest is sufficiently piqued to explore and expose the psychotherapy industry. It feels like we have unpacked a lot on it all in one place, with the social justice inspired therapeutic techniques from the article that Arabella shared and the conversations either side of that.

If he receives affirmation and applause, without challenge the euphoria is inevitable and so is him wanting more of it.
If any professionals are keeping him as the victim, with all of the social justice and oppression messaging, he'll be even more drawn towards the happy feeling he gets from the community. Even without any professional support he's on a totally unbalanced and biased pathway. This is very consistent with some of the examples in the Evans' gender dysphoria therapy book, where they are very clear to point out why respectful challenge and reflection on why are so important. Mostly though, they focus on the other presenting factors of the co-morbiditities. That's why I took the approach that I did with my daughter.

Even red flags that are there in plain sight, like the "enjoyment" of wolf whistles can't be picked up if any non-validiating voices are shut down.

Receiving wolf whistles is a pretty complex issue for girls and women anyway. From my own experience, I was a very awkward and gangly teenager (so I was desperate for them for the same "validation" that my friends got) then when they eventually did happen, I was old enough to feel a bit of a buzz but also quite scared about what these men wanted (I was still very awkward). I'm at an age now where it still occasionally happens (generally I assume because they don't quite see my age e.g. from behind 🤦‍♀️) but mostly I just watch younger women getting that attention. Suffice to say I'm not remotely jealous these days as I see it for what it is: objectification, a basic sex urge and the Andrew Tate style of "female as property/trophy". Not the "validation of my feminity" that I naively thought it was when I was younger. Throughout all of it, until I was mature enough to understand it better, I was going through so many emotions about my place in the world alongside what it meant to be desirable (and why that was or wasn't important). Aside from the nuances, I can imagine my journey was pretty typical for many women.

Instead he's getting an atypical lens on all of this. The mixed emotions that women experience are replaced by a simpler thrill. It's a fast forward version that's built on an approximation of what a group of men think it's all about, from a man's perspective e.g. (BTW I assume you mean if they were heterosexual i.e. they are gay and they now think he is becoming a woman):

The guys tell him that if they were not heterosexual they might fancy him ( he definitely seems to like that), or that he looks great.

That's such a simple view of what being a woman is. With no professional challenge or guided reflection "I identify as a woman" seems to logically pivot back to the woman as a sex object.

There will be transwomen who don't see it that way at all - I'm as certain as I can be that the transwoman I spoke to wouldn't, for example. Her awareness that she still looked like a man to everyone speaks volumes on this. But it's pretty clear why the Evans were right to put Freudian concepts at the centre of the male side of gender dysphoria. I did go back and read that section later but when I first came across it, it seemed so unrelated to my daughter (well, it is!) that I had no interest in it.

Hopefully the psychotherapy industry can have a complete direction change. It needs a critical mass of therapists and that seems depressingly far away with the current prevailing wind. Perhaps when the litigations start this will be a catalyst. Patients/insurance companies suing hospitals leading to hospitals suing therapists. With some good legal work, therapists won't stand a chance of blaming patients or hiding behind the fact that patients were acting under their own free will. They clearly aren't.

The forum is not all gay men; though the gay men tend to be his biggest allies. The heterosexual men who have been witnessing his transition all of these years know he is male - hence the comments ( if they "didn't know differently"...they'd fancy him, sort of thing).

Yes, his view of what being a woman is is very one dimensional and seems mostly related to being seen as an attractive young woman. To my mind what makes you a woman is your body; your biology - and the only times you " feel like a woman" is usually around experiences that are related to the biological body and to its functions and consequences.

It was Shon Faye who advised to "get tits early"; presumably because breasts are an obvious secondary sexual characteristic that tend to draw male attention, which for a TW who is homosexual in orientation is one of the primary goals.

I suspect we are a couple of decades away from a full retreat from genderism.

I have been struck by how often I have seen someone explain their transitioning desires as "wanting to be pretty/handsome/desirable" and not just as identifying as the other sex etc.

This seems to be linked to sometimes wanting, or seeing it possible, to transition into someone of an age not matching the person's chronological age, such as for an older man to be possible to become a teen girl, or for a woman in her thirties to become a young gay man ('twink').

All this is much more complicated, it seems, at least in some cases, than just some inner gender identity not matching someone's sex? Even for those who profess having such an identity.

But yes, sometimes it seems that the definition of 'woman' many men seem to use when discussing trans women is based on sexual desirability, as seen from the male gaze angle. If there are wolf whistles (or being asked for phone numbers by men in supermarkets), then the person is a woman. If not, then the answer is?

All this is much more complicated, it seems, at least in some cases, than just some inner gender identity not matching someone's sex? Even for those who profess having such an identity.

Indeed.

The forum is not all gay men; though the gay men tend to be his biggest allies. The heterosexual men who have been witnessing his transition all of these years know he is male - hence the comments ( if they "didn't know differently"...they'd fancy him, sort of thing).

Ah sorry. I misunderstood. Makes sense.

I suspect we are a couple of decades away from a full retreat from genderism

Without trying to loop back over old ground too much, I would hope that we could retreat to a place similar to how we are now at a societal level with religion in the UK. We don't have any modern laws based on a belief in religion and we can all tolerate living together as a society where some people have no religious faith, while others have different religious faiths.

Also, nobody needs to change their body because of their religious belief. Ideally we'd get to that point too with gender dysphoria. However, this last point is a gross oversimplification as a comparison with religion. Gender dysphoria is where someone is out of sync with the physical reality of their own body, whereas religious belief is obviously not this at all. Some people will need to make physical changes to alleviate gender dysphoria if all therapeutic options are managed well and exhausted. But if we can get to some kind of inner faith level being good enough, rather than the reliance on validation from others, a differential diagnosis as standard practice to work on trauma or co-morbiditities and a proper awareness of the fetish side of things, I think that will all go a long way towards putting gender identity belief in to a sensible perspective. There will always be people who have a gender identity belief and there will always be transgender people.

Getting psychotherapy on to a neutral footing is a key part of effecting this change. Hopefully viewpoints like James Esses' will find effective ways to be heard at scale.

I have been struck by how often I have seen someone explain their transitioning desires as "wanting to be pretty/handsome/desirable" and not just as identifying as the other sex etc.

Dustin Hoffman did a very interesting interview about playing Tootsie. The first time he went in for the full makeover he looked in the mirror, laughed, and told the makeup person 'Very funny! Now do it properly.' And she said, no - this is properly, this is how you look as a woman.

He'd genuinely thought it was a practical joke to make him up as an 'ugly' woman. He said it made him rethink his attitude to women's looks - He'd previously somehow assumed that woman by default = attractive, and that any who weren't beautiful were either doing it on purpose or just not making enough effort somehow. It was only seeing himself as a woman, and realising that he wasn't naturally beautiful and changing (apparent) sex didnt make him so, that he understood that the same applied to women - they weren't somehow choosing the way they looked and deliberately directing their unattractiveness at him.

I suspect that type of belief is not uncommon among men. But being able to make the same leap of understanding, and examine their prejudices, when seeing themselves in a mirror is rather rarer.

It's a bit like the Jungians say, isn't it - men carry around this image of the ideal feminine, which is often related to the mother image as well as placed on potential lovers.

And actually I think plenty of young women do something similar around men. Not so focused, typically, on physical beauty, but on other characteristics that are associated with ideal maleness.

As far as relating to the feminine or masculine ideal, one way of possessing a thing is to become the thing. I was quite a tomboy as a child, and I really identified with a certain instantiation of that ideal maleness - the lovable rogue type, like Han Solo. That was very much what I wanted to be. It was puberty that changed that around - the male ideal became a romantic prospect, so something to be found externally in another person. And of course maturity meant that I learned that even if as a middle aged woman I find lovable rouges appealing, real men are more than an ideal, they are people with all kinds of failings and contradictions, and rouges sometimes aren't so lovable.

It seems to me that some of these young people are trapped in trying to turn themselves into a kind of idealized, abstract image of masculinity or femininity.

The anima ( female) and the animus ( male).

We all have an internalised cross sex figure/image that tends to attract us and that represents a type of cross sex alter ego for us. Mine is the beautiful, androgynous youth; comfortable with his own desire for beauty and adornment and with a youthful, athletic, masculine, but slim body. He has a natural grace and charm and gets on with women.

The perfect embodiment, for me, at present is Damiano David of the Italian eurovision winning band Maneskin. He is the most beautiful, sexy, masculine man I have seen for a long time.

Time for an unashmed, self indulgent pictoral appreciation ( and no, he's not gay, he's definitely heterosexual)

I'm also quite partial to a youthfully beautiful long haired rock god.

Now that we've landed on the "desire" end of things, there's an interesting parallel chat that is happening on another thread.Lilly Wachowski thread

The archived article that is referenced partway down is particularly pertinent.

@NotHavingIt just to clarify, I'm not equating your appreciation of Damiano David with the inner workings of Lilly Wachowski's mind!

If you layer on the avatar too idea, the Wachowski story has a strong parallel.

Where it differs of course is back to the more "innocent" end of it all, such as the early days of a Han Solo style "identity alignment". I think back to my early famous person crushes and there was a definite innocence to them which crossed over later in to more of a "romantic fit", similar to the Han Solo description above. By way of Harrison Ford coincidence, India Jones was one for me.